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Topic: An answer to "Why does it cost so much?" |
Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2009 4:23 pm |
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There have been a number of comments made on the forum about the cost of steel-related items- most recently in a thread about volume pedals in the Electronics section and, rather than hijacking that thread I felt compelled to address it here. I have built pedal steels, cases, pak-a-seats, and volume pedals from scratch and know a bit about just how much labor goes into the design and construction of these things. The cost of having a foundry make a casting of the prototype then chasing it with milling clean up, the cost of CNC work and raw material combined with the amount labor to do the job right all combine to influence the final price as well as the addition of the routine costs of running a business (licenses, rent, utilities, phone, advertising, proper equipment,etc.). While a cursory glance might lead one to believe that there is not that much in it- I sincerely beg to differ. One can always find something less expensive if you're willing to sacrifice quality. While there are obviously exceptions, in this freemarket society I think that you usually get what you pay for- whether it be the service behind the purchase or the item or work itself. I daresay that there are not many out there in this industry that get rich from any of the products that have been mentioned and 95% of us could not afford to be involved in the production aspect of this extremely small market place. Most of the folks that I know personally do it out of love for the instrument and the people that are attracted to it and a good many of them have to have a 2nd job to support their steel related endeavors. As a test- start the clock- build yourself a pak-a-seat comparable to those out there that are currently being marketed then stop the clock when you're done, add up your labor multiplied by how much you get paid/hr at your current job then add to that the cost of the raw materials. Unless you're a musician full time (caveat for another thread) - dollars to donuts you're way ahead buying it from someone who knows how to do it and who makes it their business to do it right.
Last edited by Jim Palenscar on 22 Oct 2009 8:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Peter Freiberger
From:
California, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2009 4:31 pm
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| Amen |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 22 Oct 2009 4:53 pm
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Jim knows whereof he speaks. I build cases, cabinets and seats sometimes. Labor intensive, time consuming procedure. Moreso that you might think. Hardware is not cheap either. Coverings fabric and padding, and other quality building materials add up. Then there's hinges, drawbolts, handles, straps, glides, corners etc.
If you build a 3 door case, it takes just as much time to build lids and doors as it does to build the case part.
I wish our accessories were less costly, but overall I believe we are getting high quality products designed specifically for steel guitar and available nowhere else at fair prices. |
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Jonathan Cullifer
From:
Gallatin, TN
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Posted 22 Oct 2009 7:53 pm
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You do get what you pay for. Sure, the cables, volume pedals, picks, bars, and all that were expensive but they have certainly held up well and, over time, have been a great investment.
Also, compare the price of any of our handmade stuff to any handmade guitar gear. It's peanuts compared to guitar stuff. |
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Ned McIntosh
From:
New South Wales, Australia
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Posted 23 Oct 2009 2:28 am
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It's like buying oats: if you want top-quality oats, then you have to pay the price the market asks for them. If you'll settle for the oats after they've passed through the horse, that's cheaper!
_________________
The steel guitar is a hard mistress. She will obsess you, bemuse and bewitch you. She will dash your hopes on what seems to be whim, only to tease you into renewing the relationship once more so she can do it to you all over again...and yet, if you somehow manage to touch her in that certain magic way, she will yield up a sound which has so much soul, raw emotion and heartfelt depth to it that she will pierce you to the very core of your being. |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 23 Oct 2009 4:48 am
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I agree that the cost of most steel stuff is reasonable. Just the effort it takes to professionally rod up a steel is huge and an art in itself. I just bought some crown moulding for my living room and was considering installing it myself (nail and hammer) but my laser saw wasn't big enough to make the compund miter cut. I hired a pro who took only 2.5 hours, charged me $125, did a perfect job. He had a gas cylinder powered nailer and the latest tools. The work is just flawless.
I say either pay the going reasonable rate for steel stuff or do it yourself and then wonder how anyone makes a profit manufacturing or selling this stuff. Either way, quality is most important and it's real easy to forget how much you paid for something if it turns out to be a high quality item.
Greg |
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Per Berner
From:
Skovde, Sweden
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Posted 23 Oct 2009 5:57 am
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| Compared to the price of some 6-string electric guitars, pedal steel guitars are absolute bargains. Building a Tele-style guitar is a matter of hours, and even the very best woods and hardware wouldn't cost more than 5-600 dollars wholesale. Yet it can cost much more than a loaded S10 steel. Guess who's making money – my bet is NOT on the steel builder. |
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Joe Naylor
From:
Avondale, Arizona, USA
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Posted 23 Oct 2009 6:46 am
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To quote Peter----- "AMEN"
I find that many wants a steelseat just a little different then when I tell them that it will cost so much extra ----- it is like ----- you mean you are going to charge extra.
This is usually for something that NO ONE has ever put on a seat before. Many times it is several things and when the price adds up they can not believe they are asking for a $1,000 seat --- if some forum reader thinks I am talking about a specific person they are "RONG" - this has happened 5 or 6 times in the last month.
Then we get the guy that calls up and asks for the freight price and asks for the PayPal invoice and away we go. It has turned into being funny with several of the vendors for steel guitar stuff.
They will call me and say ----- Joe, you are not going to believe this one ................
By now we think we have heard it all. Truth is that NONE of the vendors are getting rich ---- just getting by.
Thanks Jim
_________________
Joe Naylor, Avondale, AZ (Phoenix) Announcer/Emcee owner www.steelseat.com *** OFFERING SEATS AND Effects cases with or without legs and other stuff ****** -Desert Rose Guitar S-10, Life Member of the Arizona Carport Pickers Assoc., Southwest Steel Guitar Assoc., Texas Steel Guitar Assoc., GA Steel Guitar Assoc., KS Steel Guitar Assoc. (Asleep at the Steel) tag line willed to me by a close late friend RIP |
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Geoff Cline
From:
Southwest France
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Posted 23 Oct 2009 6:59 am
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| Living with a product and furniture designer (who is also a certified welder, wood worker and one hell of a woman!)and having had first hand experience with R&D, prototyping and fabrication, it is amazing to me how much VALUE there is in the pedal steel products I have acquired. The quality machining and wood work in my guitars (Kline and Blanton), the technology, design and execution of my Telonics pedal, the craftsmanship and quality of my Walker seat...I'm thankful that they can be brought to market and sold so that everyone in the supply/product chain can eek out a living (certainly no one's making a killing in this game). I also respect and appreciate the passion and dedication that drives crafts people to do what they do |
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Al Risbeck
From:
Iowa, USA
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Posted 23 Oct 2009 7:20 am Processed Oats
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But Ned look what processed oats can do, Keep the oil in your Model T warm, grow cucumbers and the like, even create jobs at the stable. All in all it's like the dollar that gets taxed multiple time every day.  |
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Tommy Gibbons
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Posted 23 Oct 2009 7:54 am Trickle Down Effect!!!
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You're right AL, the Trickle Down Effect at its best!!!
Tommy |
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Ben Jones
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 23 Oct 2009 7:59 am
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| Jonathan Cullifer wrote: |
You do get what you pay for. Sure, the cables, volume pedals, picks, bars, and all that were expensive but they have certainly held up well and, over time, have been a great investment.
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I paid $175 for a volume pedal. the cheap chinese pot lasted one week. I am very sorry guys...i understand it costs money to set up production, but for my $175 couldnt they use a decent pot at least?
A pot pedal is a case, a string and a pot. Guitar effects have electronics in them, they have IC chips, printed circuit boards, multiple potentiometers, components that actually cost money and dont crap out after one weeks use and they still cost less than that volume pedal. 
Im glad the comparison is being made because its a glaring difference in cost and quality.
As for pack a seats, I would never buy one. They are too heavy and too expensive for me. But at least they are made out of quality materials and I respect the builders craftsmanship. I dont feel they are overpriced...Its just not an item for me. I prefer a $30 collapsing keyboard bench to sit on and a $3 thrift store suitcase to haul my junk in. It works better for ME and saves me $170. If a seat with a backrest or whatever works better for you, more power to you and to the builders.
I think pac a seats are cool products and would probably own one If i could lift em.
Im sure Im not winning any friends here with this, but then its not so friendly to charge me $175 for something that malfunctions in a weeks time either so I will speak my mind.
The pot volume pedal I purchased was overpriced and not quality. end of (my) story.
Last edited by Ben Jones on 23 Oct 2009 8:13 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Ronnie Boettcher
From:
Brunswick Ohio, USA
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Posted 23 Oct 2009 8:02 am
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I was a union electrician, for 46 years. Always someone would ask me to do a side job for them. OK, if I were to consider this, First, I have to go look at the job. Then run around purchasing the materials. Take all my tools, equipment, and materials back to the job. Do the job. Then the customer wants it done for a very cheap price. I tell them, you can't afford me. If I tack on a cheap hourly wage, it is me in the hole. Then add on the taxes. I tell them to go get some other sucker to work for nothing. I fully agree with you on the cost of making guitars, or accessories, and a small profit. Tools, materials, labor, and profit.
_________________
Sho-Bud LDG, Martin D28, Ome trilogy 5 string banjo, Ibanez 4-string bass, dobro, fiddle, and a tubal cain. Life Member of AFM local 142 |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 23 Oct 2009 8:12 am
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| It is a shame that there is such a dirth of decent pots these days however those that have gone bad on me (specifically Clarostats) in less than acceptable time have been replaced by the manufacturers of the volume pedals (specifically Goodrich)that they were in at no charge to me. 35 years later I can still use the same volume pedal housing that Goodrich produced that cannot be worn out and replacing a $20-$30 pot. Fortunately the Dunlop pots seem to be a decent replacement as far as quality is concerned however I have heard a few grumblings about the taper~~ 'twas ever thus. It is interesting about the comment regarding the $30 piano bench (locally Guitar Center)- as I was thinking the same thing before the comment was posted- great value for a simple light bench- not a pak-a-seat but serves a purpose. |
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Ben Jones
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 23 Oct 2009 8:25 am
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| Jim Palenscar wrote: |
| It is a shame that there is such a dirth of decent pots these days however those that have gone bad on me (specifically Clarostats)in less than acceptable time have been replaced by the manufacturers of the volume pedals (specifically Goodrich) that they were in at no charge to me. Fortunately the Dunlop pots seem to be a decent replacement as far as quality is concerned however I have heard a few grumblings about the taper~~'twas ever thus. It is interesting about the comment regarding the $30 piano bench (locally Guitar Center)- as I was thinking the same thing before the comment was posted- great value for a simple light bench.- not a pak-a-seat but serves a purpose. |
I scored a pot from Tom Bradshaw that has lasted years. I recall Earnest Bovine saying he buys pots from grainger at avery good price. I can order up really nice pots to build my amps and fix my wah pedals etc etc..I just have a hard time beleiving there is not a better source than china for some decent potentiometers and have to assume the onhly reason for using them is to save money. Im not real high on chinese products period having recently been poisoned by some. They are trying to kill us. *adjust tin foil hat
I love the keyboard seat. It folds compltely flat for one thing. I use a pedalboard that wouldnt fit into a pac a seat anyway, so thats a problem ..if you use a pedalboard, a pack a seat carries what, your chords and bar? i DO think they are super cool tho. I am jealous actually. Its just a cool swanky accessory  .... that unfortunately doesnt work for my needs.
I DO think I understand your point from the initial post. Point taken. There is more to making a volume pedal than pot, string and case. there is always setup and design considerations and costs. and with the pack a seat builders there is considerable effort, materials and craftsmanship and time spent that justify the expense.
I guess my volume pedal experience was less that satisfactory and really left me wondering what i had paid for. |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 23 Oct 2009 8:30 am
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While I was reading Greg's post about the crown molding, it reminded me of a standing joke at our house, based on an episode of the Andy Griffith Show.
Aunt Bea had an old worn-out freezer on the back porch. It just barely worked. She then went out and bought a half-side of beef and filled up the freezer. Of course, the freezer didn't work well enough to keep the meat frozen. Andy kept telling Aunt Bea to "call the man" in Mount Pilot and have him come over and repair the freezer. She didn't want to spend the money so she had Gomer Pyle look at it (he pumped gas at the local gas station) and of course he couldn't fix it. Andy kept yelling at Aunt Bea to "just call the man". She kept trying to do things the cheap way and Andy just kept hollering, "Aunt Bea, call the man. Just call the man!"
Now, when something goes wrong or breaks at our house, before I can even get the tools out to try to fix it, my wife starts telling me, "Just call the man!" |
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CrowBear Schmitt
From:
Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France
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Posted 23 Oct 2009 8:42 am
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interesting discussion here - Thanx fer bringin' it up Jim
there's only 1 boss & that's the budget
wanna budge it ?
a corvette for the price of a corvair ?
no way Ray
good luck makin' or rollin' yer own
some are good at it & others better go down to the shop & cop
some used VPs 4 sale right here on the Fo'........bro'
if i can't afford it : i wait & save up or i go unto something else
now i had a goodrich120 (500k) that lasted me a couple of years No Problémo !
good bang for $ ? i'd say so
beats the ernie ball (250k) hands down imo & is specific to the psg
i've gotten Dunlop Hot Pots from Tom Bradshaw for steelers here & no complaints so far
Yes, i use a Hilton cause there's no hassle & it woiks
now that fancy Teletronics vp is way over my budget
but i'd love to have one
i've got a keyboard bench & since i was jealous, i got my badslef a pacaseat too
Ronnie, i'm w: you
as an electrician myself,i know just what you mean when you give a client a quote & he chokes on it
& he don't understand that you're not choking him
the budge it is !
Have mercy ! 
Last edited by CrowBear Schmitt on 23 Oct 2009 9:43 am; edited 1 time in total |
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HowardR
From:
N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville
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Posted 23 Oct 2009 9:11 am
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There is also a cost factor (to the consumer) that many seem to forget or not realize.......the person who makes the item......is also entitled to make a profit......
When I was a manufacturer (I owned 2 factories) there were times when I was asked to break down the cost of my products ("why is this so expensive")....
my reply was.....
materials - 1/3
labor - 1/3
profit - 1/3 |
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John Swindle
From:
Oregon, USA
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Posted 23 Oct 2009 12:38 pm
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| I have built three non-pedal steels, and a fourth is in progress in my shop. These steels have taken me far more time to build than they should, because I lack any real expertise. I recently bought a two-year-old Mullen, and you can imagine how my home-made steels look in comparison. Shoddy, amateurish, flimsy. The best I can say about them is that I have fun doing it. But that's not how any market works. People who really know how to do a job well should get a fair profit. I can tell by looking that the folks who built my PSG know a thing or two that I don't. And I can see why it cost what it did. |
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Michael Strauss
From:
Delray Beach,Florida
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Posted 23 Oct 2009 1:47 pm
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Some items we buy are a bit pricey, but you are paying for quality. Yes some volume pedals (pot type) are expensve, but the resale value is very good and they last forever. I for one would gladly pay a few dollars more knowing I'm getting first rate equipment, even if means I have to save a little longer to get it. I do think people who make equipment for PSG have a small demoraphic and don't get the volume discounts a large mnufacturer can get. So if you think it costs to much, find something you think is worth it. I believe you get what you pay for.
Thank you to all who make all the wonderful toys for us to spend our money on.
_________________
Carter S-12U, Sho-Bud LGD (80's), Fender Jazz King, Korg Pandora Toneworks PX4D, Modulus Q6, Ampeg B5R, Lapstick Travel Guitar mod to lapsteel |
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Ray Minich
From:
Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra
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Posted 23 Oct 2009 6:22 pm
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In economics the parameter is called "marginal utility". A given increase in marginal utility (i.e. quality, functionality, bells and whistles) is accompanied by a cost increase that is at an ever increasing rate (that is the cost goes up faster than the increase in utility, the law of diminishing returns). The "good ones" cost more.
It's a fact of life.
Except when you're experiencing the occasional "lemon". |
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Roual Ranes
From:
Atlanta, Texas, USA
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Posted 24 Oct 2009 5:57 am
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| Let me see now..............a Gibson Les Paul Custom list for $6700.00..........does that sound a little high???????????? |
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Stan Schober
From:
Cahokia, Illinois, USA
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Posted 24 Oct 2009 6:01 am
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| Roual Ranes wrote: |
| Let me see now..............a Gibson Les Paul Custom list for $6700.00..........does that sound a little high???????????? |
Considering that a great deal of the work is done by machines...yeah. |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 24 Oct 2009 6:26 am
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Ben, the point about the almost immediate failure of the pot in your volume pedal is well taken. I, for one, certaintly didn't intend to gloss over your problem. $175 is a lot of money to me. I agree that this is unacceptable in a brand new product and that manufacurers should make sure they are acquiring the best electronics possible. I would also expect that the Mfg. would make it right with you. I realize that the cost of shipping both ways and the incovenience of being without it is annoying.
Generally, I agree about our accessories being of reasonable value. I do understand that none of our cheerleading about that helps your situation one bit. I hope you can get a satisfactory resolution to the problem from the maker. |
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