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Topic: ZB Guitar Sound, what makes it? |
Clinton Erb
From:
Ligonier, PA
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Posted 17 Oct 2009 11:56 am |
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Here's the back story:
I've been trying to emulate the sound of the Buck Owens' Buckaroos for a good long while now.
As many of us know, we have two lead instruments in the 5 piece setup, Pedal Steel (ZB) and Electric Guitar (Telecaster).
I've finally got Don Rich's tone down, but it took a heck of a lot of mods to a Telecaster I built. So that leaves us with pedal steel.
If I understand this whole pedal steel thing correctly, ZB's were/are known for their thinnish, trebley sound (much like a Tele). From what I understand the most common thing you can do to get more treble to swap out pups for a lower output.
If that is the case, what was the make and output of ZB guitars in the mid 60's?
Hearkening back to the Don Rich mods to my Telecaster, I found a 1-Meg Audio pot in the volume space upped the treble and twang on the guitar. Would it do the same with the pedal steel?
So you guys know, I'm still in highschool so I don't have much of a budget, otherwise I would have already bought a ZB. I use a Carter Starter (which was expensive, to give you a feel for my price range) that is in pretty good working order. The only thing I'm missing on the guitar (other than the tone) would be a low 11th string like Tom Brumley had on his.
I hope I'm not assuming too much, please tell me if I am.
Thanks a bunch,
Clint |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 17 Oct 2009 12:22 pm
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| Clinton, I build new replica ZB's. There is not another steel in the world that will get you that sound. Its not just the pickup, but the construction of the guitar. The ZB pickup is also unique in its construction. If you want the ZB sound get a ZB. The other factor is a good tube amplifier. I'm glad you hear that sound. www.retrosteelguitar.net |
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Skip Edwards
From:
LA,CA
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Posted 17 Oct 2009 12:52 pm
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ZB's have their own signature sound, but if you're going for the Buck vibe, don't forget that more than a few of his tunes were cut on a Fender... "Together Again", just to name one.
btw...Kevin's doing a very cool thing with his ZB replicas. |
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Clinton Erb
From:
Ligonier, PA
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Posted 17 Oct 2009 2:07 pm
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| Skip Edwards wrote: |
ZB's have their own signature sound, but if you're going for the Buck vibe, don't forget that more than a few of his tunes were cut on a Fender... "Together Again", just to name one.
btw...Kevin's doing a very cool thing with his ZB replicas. |
Your right about that... I know Tom used the Fender Steel that Buck's previous player Jay McDonald left, through a Bassman. Apparently McDonald had sabotaged it or some such so that only the A & B pedals worked, hence the simplicity on 'Together Again' and other recording of that period.
The tone that I really crave is the ZB Guitar into a Twin Reverb. This is the setup that Tom used during the first Buck Owens Ranch Shows and during Carnegie Hall.
Buying a real ZB is out the question at this point due to finances. I'm looking for something that'll make my steel sound a bit more thin and trebley. |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 17 Oct 2009 2:23 pm
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| Clinton, you also need to study Tom Brumley's palm blocking technique. It was a key to his sound. Also, play fairly close to the axle, not extremely close, just closer than the fret board. That will help. There is no substituting for that equipment set up. If you go to www.tombrumley.com you will hear Tom playing his Anapeg, on which he totally sounds different from his ZB/Twin setup. Proof that equipment makes a sizeable difference in sound. There are things in the ZB steel construction that are contributing to that sound that you are hearing. Unique. |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 17 Oct 2009 3:32 pm
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| Guys,,, would an EQ stompbox help at all? |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 17 Oct 2009 4:10 pm
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| Bill, it certainly might. they are good for shaping sound. |
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Casey Lowmiller
From:
Kansas
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Posted 17 Oct 2009 5:14 pm
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His sound that he got with Rick Nelson was good too. Both with a Fender Twin & with the Risson amps.
As Kevin said, the way ZBs are constructed is the secret to their sound!!!
Casey
_________________
Known Coast to Coast as
"The Man with The Plan" |
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Jody Sanders
From:
Magnolia,Texas, R.I.P.
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Posted 17 Oct 2009 5:34 pm
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| The ZBs that Zane Beck built indeed had a unique sound. Bobby Garrett started playing a ZB after hearing Tom Brumley on a ZB. Bobby played thru a Fender Twin and got a fabulous tone. I aquired the ZB and amp from Bobby. I took the 2 12" speakers out and put in 1 JBL 15" speaker. I played this rig for several years. Loved it. Jody. PS I thought Tom Brumley had a great tone, not thin or tinny. |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 17 Oct 2009 11:28 pm
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I don't know what pickup is in a Carter Starter, but if it is a humbucker, you will have difficulty getting an early Tom Brumley sound.
A single-coil pickup, with a low output, would be a good starting point, but, as the mechanism of the Starter changer is totally different than a ZB, I think that there will be little 'sparkle' to the tone.
The ZB changer fingers (actually, the tuning adjusting nuts/capscrews) are always in contact with the endplate, that's what makes them different to regular all-pull steels, and IMHO that's what contributes to the great 'ZB Sound' |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 18 Oct 2009 4:23 am
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Joe A. Camacho
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Posted 18 Oct 2009 2:26 pm
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| I don't think I've ever heard the ZB sound as being thin. My ZB doesn't sound thin at all. |
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Chuck McGill
From:
An hour from Memphis and 2 from Nashville, R.I.P.
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Posted 19 Oct 2009 5:49 am
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If you tap the pickup it gets a more twangy sound but
I would never consider ZBs thin. I think the twins
most people played through gave them that sound. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 19 Oct 2009 6:00 am
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I agree! My first three steels were ZBs, and I think my perception of what a steel should sound like is schooled by those first guitars of mine as much as anything else.
I thought the sound warm and round, although I always liked a 15" speaker.
Kevin: You do lovely-looking work! That red/maple guitar is stunning! I assume you're only doing 10-string guitars? One of these days I'll check with you and see what a nice blue and blond guitar would cost....
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Per Berner
From:
Skovde, Sweden
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Posted 19 Oct 2009 6:45 am
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| Clinton, it would be interesting to know what other modifications you made on your Telecaster, apart from the volume pot. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 19 Oct 2009 9:55 am
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My ZB D10 sounds thick and chunky - a very unique, strong-midrange sound.
It thins (compared to the other two taps) when set on the lowest-impedance tap, but never sounds "thin". I could force it via outboard gear (an EQ, Steeldriver with tone control or dialing out the bass at the amp) but I don't think that'd be a "good" thin tone.
Then again, I like Don Rich's playing but don't care for his icepick-treble tone. I've played mostly Teles since '68, and have never intentionally played with that type of shrill, tinny sound. Some like it, though - but honestly, I can't even get my ZB to sound that thin if I roll the bass all the way off on my amp. Same with my Fender 400 and 1000's, but I can get them to sound a bit thinner than the ZB - they actually have a very round tone and it takes rolling the bass off on the amp, diming the tone control on the guitar and sometimes rolling the volume control on the guitar of just a hair to get it that thin. You'll get lots of treble that way, but the first few rows of audience members may not be hearing well for a few days! 
Or find an old EH Screaming Bird treble booster. That WILL get you a thin tone...a "usable" one I'm not so sure about....
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Ben Elder
From:
La Crescenta, California, USA
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 19 Oct 2009 11:54 am
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| Roger, I am making 11 strings also. |
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Clinton Erb
From:
Ligonier, PA
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Posted 22 Oct 2009 2:08 pm
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| Per Berner wrote: |
| Clinton, it would be interesting to know what other modifications you made on your Telecaster, apart from the volume pot. |
I tried to get as close to Don's '64 (Or was it a '65?) as I could. Fender USA Custom 62' pickups, the ones in the 62 RI. I wired those in goofy kind of wiring, no caps or anything were used. Just wire, one 1 meg and one 250k pot. The body is 4 piece Alder. The neck is a 2 piece all maple neck. I used a bridge from the 62 RI, the one with threaded steel saddles. I use Elixir Nanoweb .010-.052 as this is what I've found Don used (Gaugewise). (I know some guys who knew Gene Moles, and were in and around his shop, as well as Eugene Moles who played Don's Telecaster)
I play through a Twin Reverb, normally with the Treble on 6 or 7, the mid on 4, and the bass on 8 or 9.
It is not 'Ice-Pickish' at all. It twangs like none other. |
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Chris Erbacher
From:
Sausalito, California, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2009 4:04 pm
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i read somewhere an interview with tom and he said he always used a blackface twin, or one that had been blackfaced...someone else here may be able to confirm that or correct me if i am wrong...and you gotta have a ZB to get that tone, and preferably one made by zane...larry chung can probably point you in the direction of how to identify those particular serial numbers and what the pickups look like...i'm pretty sure there is a difference, subtle but tangible nonetheless...or you could just save your money and try to work a deal out with kevin on building you a steel that will get you there with updated mechanics underneath so you will have the best of both worlds... which is what i would do if i were in your shoes...i own two zb's and one was made by zane...i can tell the difference in tone between the two, but a part of me still wants one made by kevin...i think the thin sound you are hearing is actually the amp setting...i agree with jim...the midrange on these guitars is awesome and i may be one of the few, but i like my twin (135 watt version) with the mids all the way up...and treble on like 4...bass on 3...maybe some research into blackfacing a twin and caps and getting into details therein would help you in your quest...and more than likely jbl's also...my two cents...aloha, chris |
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Tim Whitlock
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 23 Oct 2009 8:11 am
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Cinton - can I just say how cool it is to know that someone still in high school is into Buck Owens' music so deeply? It speaks of an independent thinker that is not a slave to current trends. I'm totally impressed! I'd be curious to know how you got to come down this path.
In regards to the sound you hear on the Buck Owens recordings, please keep in mind that Buck intentionally had them engineered and EQ'd to emphasize the treble, so that they would cut through when played on car radios of that era. Therefore, the sound you are hearing on the recordings is not really representative of the sound the instruments were putting out live. Although much twang is certainly desirable for this type of music, I don't think you'll be able to get the degree of thinness you hear on the recordings, in a live setting. I would focus on capturing the feel and expression of Buck's music. A Tele and a ZB should get you in the inherent tone range by default.
Does your group have a website or myspace with sound clips? I'd love to know more about it! Best of luck in your endeavors!
[Edited to say: Oops forgot you have a Carter. Again, I doubt if any steel will sound as thin as the recordings sound, but I think a Carter would get you in the ballpark for a decent twangy sound through a Fender Twin or similar amp. A different pickup or pot might not hurt.] |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 5 Nov 2009 9:43 pm
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An example of my ZB tone HERE
It definately isn't a thin sound.
I was playing in a jam situation (4th player) at Cambridge, the other players are John Davis, Johnny Rondo, and John Roche |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 5 Nov 2009 11:17 pm
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| You sound good Richard. It does my heart good to see you British boys keeping the steel guitar alive and well. Very nice get together. |
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