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Topic: Intonation |
R Robichaud
From:
Riverview, N.B. Canada
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Posted 21 Oct 2009 10:54 am |
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| I am having a terrible time in understanding intonation as it relates to steel guitar. Here is what I think it is. If you take an electric guitar, hit a string (note) open and again up 12 frets (octave) and the note is sharp or flat, you have an intonation problem. The problem could be an old or bad string, wrong distance between the nut and octave. However with the steel guitar, your string does not touch the fret with an electric guitar the string touches the fret, therfore with a steel guitar when you hit a string open and again up to the octave, and if you have a good ear you can eliminate the sharp or flat with your bar. If my tuner works perfect and I have new strings and someone tells me my steel may have an intonation problem. what could be the cause and solution. |
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Tim Kowalski
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 21 Oct 2009 11:02 am
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Are you playing with other instruments, or is the person saying that the guitar has problems being in tune with itself? If it is the latter, it may be that you need to adjust your pulls to be in tune when you engage pedals or levers.
You should use the tuner and then adjust to your ear.
_________________
Bad wine is better than no wine. |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 21 Oct 2009 11:16 am
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The only way a steel can have intonation problems is if the fretboard is wrong, eg a 24" fretboard on a 24 1/4" scale length guitar
Hit the harmonic at the exact half-way distance between the nut and the changer, and see if it is exactly over the 12th fret |
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Dick Wood
From:
Springtown Texas, USA
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Posted 21 Oct 2009 1:07 pm
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Intonation with respect to steel is the ability to play in tune in any particular key without playing sharp or flat.
Since the bridge and roller nut are fixed with respect to each other, your bar (and ear) determines intonation on a steel.
_________________
Cops aren't paid much so I steel at night. |
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John De Maille
From:
On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.
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Posted 21 Oct 2009 1:22 pm
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Generally, fretboards on a steel, are just reference points. There is no physical contact with the string and the fret. And, yes, there may be a 24" fretboard on a 24 1/4" steel and that would throw intonation out, but, you should be able to adjust with your ears and bar placement. If you look at different steels, you'll see that the frets are different thicknesses. That's because they are just reference points. With practise and familiarity of your steel, you will become more precise with your bar placement.
As long as all your pulls are in tune, without barring the steel,it's up to you to place the bar on the correct place. If it's your guitar player, tell him to buy a better guitar. |
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Russ Wever
From:
Kansas City
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Posted 21 Oct 2009 1:27 pm
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Of course, how firmly you force the
bar downward enters into the equation,
not to mention how accurately the bar
is held parallel to the fret marker.
~Russ |
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Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted 21 Oct 2009 1:29 pm
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There are two schools of thought regarding intonation on PSG. They really arent referring to intonation like a fretted guitar, where each string length is adjusted so the 12th fret octave is in tune. The PSG has no string length adjustment. What is adjusted is first your open tuning. Some tune electronically to A440 (ET-equal temperament), others tune according to a JI-just intonated method (ie. thirds are tuned flat of 440, say to 438). Then there is the tuning of pedals and levers. These can be tuned the same way. If someone says your intonation is out, its your tuning. If the chord sounds okay with no pedals or levers but out of tune when pedals and levers are used, then your pedals need tuning. If the chord is out of tune with no pedals, then your strings need tuning. There are alot of variances in tuning stability, cabinet drop, pedal/lever action, string guage etc. between different guitars, and no guitar is completely in tune all the time, even from day to day as climate changes can affect tuning as well.
Clete |
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R Robichaud
From:
Riverview, N.B. Canada
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Posted 21 Oct 2009 2:42 pm
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| Thanks Tim, Richard,Dick,John,Russ, and Clete, for your responses, they are very imformative. However I would like to throw a curve (since were in the midst of the World Series).Could excessive high volume by another instrument other than the steel guitar be interpreted as an intonation problem. For example if the lead guitar is at such a high volume that the steel player can hardly hear himself play (no matter how high his volume is) ,the steel player could possibly be playing flat or sharp without realizing it. If this was the case how would you handle it. |
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Shane Glover
From:
Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 21 Oct 2009 3:30 pm
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| Is the lead player the band leader ? If so then you will have to be tactful. If not I would tell him he is cuttin your head off & it would be nice if he would back off the volume so you can hear yourself!! And maybe , just maybe he is contributing to the so called intonation problem. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 21 Oct 2009 10:39 pm Re: Intonation
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| R Robichaud wrote: |
| If my tuner works perfect and I have new strings and someone tells me my steel may have an intonation problem. what could be the cause and solution. |
We need more specifics. What exactly is the "intonation problem" your steel "may have?" There are so many different things this could mean. Some have to do with the instrument, some have to do with the player.
The volume thing is a whole different issue. Generally, if there is a tuning conflict between two instruments, the one that plays the loudest is the one that sounds more in tune. The way this generally plays out is that the loud lead instrument will sound in tune, and the quieter background instrument will sound out. But then if the roles are switched, again the loud lead will sound more in tune, and the backup will sound out, even though neither instrument has actually changed its tuning. The only solution to this is to figure out exactly where the intonation conflict occurs and get the two instruments tuning together to eliminate the problem.
If you can isolate exactly how the two instruments differ in tuning (use a chromatic meter to find the problem), we can offer advice on how to fix that. There is probably nothing wrong with your steel guitar. But there may be a real conflict in how the two instruments are being tuned or played. |
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Cal Sharp
From:
the farm in Kornfield Kounty, TN
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Posted 22 Oct 2009 7:57 am
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There are many theories regarding tuning and intonation, but it all boils down to two things.
1. You'll never get your guitar in tune, it just ain't possible. What you can do is get it close and learn to live with which pedal/string combinations sound right and which don't.
2. To sound in tune with other players you have to use bar slants, play above or below the frets and avoid certain pedal/string combinations completely.
All this takes experience, and a lot of it.
What I do when I hear an intonation problem is pick an open "E" string when we're in the the key of "E". If it sounds OK, I know I'm in tune and the guitar player's bending/mashing/crushing his strings out of tune in some positions. If it doesn't sound OK I know one of us isn't at A 440.
What Doggett said about volume is pretty much true, unfortunately, and you may be perceived as the one out of tune by listeners. It helps if you can get as far away from the guitar player's amp as possible and play loud enough so you can't hear him. Many times this results in a good mix out front.
Your role in most playing situations is to make the singer and the song sound good, and if the band has a tuning problem it's sometimes best to lay back a little and just play pads and slides and avoid distinct notes or chords that conflict with what that obnoxious bastage on the Tele is doing.
_________________
C#
Me: Steel Guitar Madness
Latest ebook: Steel Guitar Insanity
Custom Made Covers for Steel Guitars & Amps at Sharp Covers Nashville |
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Bill Miller
From:
Gaspe, Quebec, Canada
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Posted 22 Oct 2009 8:28 am
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| Quote: |
| If my tuner works perfect and I have new strings |
R., I've no idea how much experience you have so this question comes to mind: What kind of tuner are you using? And are you using a temperered tuning such as the one credited to Jeff Newman. If you're using an ordinary guitar tuner and tuning all strings and pulls straight up you'll never sound in tune to my ears. ( although some people do prefer to tune that way) |
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Ivan Funk
From:
Hamburg Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2009 10:42 am
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....yeah what Dick Wood said -
I have heard of a violin or cello player with good intonation. They are referring to player not the instrument. It could be said that a steel player who's bar hand can play on pitch has good intonation. I've never understood talking about a fretless instrument's intonation. A Theremin doesn't have intonation issues.
To me intonation on a fretless instrument is between my hand and my mind. If a person can't sing or hum on pitch I don't see how they can train their hand to play on pitch on a fretless instrument. |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 22 Oct 2009 12:02 pm
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If you can hear when things are out of tune, then you have the basic ability to play a fretless instrument in tune. Assuming that ability is present, then when we don't play in tune it's because;
a) everything around us is so out of tune that we can't determine where the proper pitch is, &/or
b) we are so to caught us in the mechanics of trying to play the music/licks, or we looking at the pretty girl on the dance floor, or we have had one too many beers, or etc., that we let our attention drift from the important issue of intonation.
If a) is the problem, it's time to have an open and frank band discussion, or find a new band.
If b) is the problem, it's time to re-assess your priorities. It is far better to play simple licks in tune than to play hot licks out of tune.
Also, I agree entirely with Cal, sometimes you have to play above or below the fret to be in tune. The most obvious example is when you depress pedals A&B. With the resulting cabinet drop you have to play above the fret slightly to be in tune. The pedal A and Knee lever F combo is even more dramatic. You have to play significantly above the fret to be in tune on the resulting major chord (three frets up from the open chord). Your ear has to be the guide, not the fretboard.
Paul |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 22 Oct 2009 1:09 pm
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| Quote: |
| If my tuner works perfect and I have new strings and someone tells me my steel may have an intonation problem. what could be the cause and solution. |
Much as I hate to say it, you can't depend on a tuner to accurately tune your steel (or your guitar, or your fiddle, or your Theremin). Yes, I know that really frosts some people, especially after they've spent mucho bucks on a fancy tuner, and gotten all the latest whoopie-wow presets from whomever. But the deal is - you've gotta have a good ear. Neither the best tuner, nor the best guitar, will ever replace a good ear.
Read what Cal said carefully. It's the gospel TRUTH.  |
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John De Maille
From:
On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.
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Posted 22 Oct 2009 1:20 pm
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Geez,
I think I said all of this in my previous post.
The frets are reference points. Your ears and your bar hand do the rest. |
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Cal Sharp
From:
the farm in Kornfield Kounty, TN
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Posted 22 Oct 2009 1:23 pm
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I said in an above post:
| Quote: |
To sound in tune with other players you have to use bar slants, play above or below the frets and avoid certain pedal/string combinations completely.
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I should probably qualify that. Generally, the better the musicians are that you work with, the fewer adjustments you'll have to make. It's the 2nd-rate guitar slingers who use .009's who can't play in tune.
_________________
C#
Me: Steel Guitar Madness
Latest ebook: Steel Guitar Insanity
Custom Made Covers for Steel Guitars & Amps at Sharp Covers Nashville |
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Bill Miller
From:
Gaspe, Quebec, Canada
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Posted 22 Oct 2009 1:55 pm
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| I don't disagree with anything that's been said so far in this thread. It all rings true and it's good advice. Still, I always use my Peterson VS-II with the Newman presets as a starting point. It's quick, it's repeatable and for the most part it gets me pretty darn close. If you need to sweeten something to sound right with some other instrument then you do that. Mostly, if I'm tuned with the VS-II I will sound in tune when playing along with studio produced CDs...and that should be a good indicator. Those times when something sounds out of tune on stage it almost invariably turns out that someone hasn't taken the time to use their tuner. This is probably less of an issue in more professional bands. |
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Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted 22 Oct 2009 2:19 pm
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| ...Neither the best tuner, nor the best guitar, will ever replace a good ear. |
I Agree.
For E9 I use a tuner to get all strings to 440. The roots and fifths (strings 10, 8, 5 and 4) I leave at 440, then tune by ear to "tune out the beats" of the thirds (strings 6 and 3) which sound a little sharp, and tune string 2 to string 10, 7 and 5. Then last I tune string 9 to string 6 with B pedal engaged. I learned this from Bruce Boutons DVD. I tune the A pedal to string 6, B pedal to string 8. I tune E lowers to string 10 and E raises to string 10 with A pedal engaged. The point is to tune pedals and levers so it sounds good, not necessarily to 440. This is why bar placement is critical, since a chord using levers and pedals may sound in tune relatively, but all are out of pitch on a meter. The bar is your "intonation".
| Cal Sharp wrote: |
| ...It's the 2nd-rate guitar slingers who use .009's who can't play in tune. |
Hey, I resemble that remark! 
Although I use .009's and am a 2nd-rate guitar slinger, I do pride myself on playing in tune (most of the time, anyway).
On guitar I use .009 for electric and .011 for acoustic, so I use the same non-wound .011 and .016 strings on both. I have a drawer filled with low E, A and D strings since they hardly ever break. I change all strings periodically, but not as often as I should. Ive started buying singles in bulk.
Clete |
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Joseph Barcus
From:
Volga West Virginia
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Posted 22 Oct 2009 3:25 pm
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I knew a guy once that played steel and played it very flat most of the time. well come to find out one day he was singing a song and playing in key with himself but he was also singing flat as well. just nature singing or playing a instrument. now another thing I used to temper my guitar but I found that it was harder to play sitting beside a lead man for he or I was always trying to figure out who was out of tune. so I went back to regular no temper tuning and that fixed it. so for some the temper works while for others like me it dont.
_________________
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvuH7H8BajODaL_wy3_HSJQ |
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Gary Chiappetta
From:
San Bruno, California, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2009 11:00 pm
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| I always intone with the bass. That is the reference point for the ensemble. If your intonation is "right-on" with the bass you will always sound good. |
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Joseph Barcus
From:
Volga West Virginia
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