| Author |
Topic: 'Looking for tone' part 2 |
Ted Solesky
From:
Mineral Wells, Texas, USA
|
Posted 9 Oct 2009 12:57 pm |
|
| I tried to add a remark on the original topic and it got lost? Years ago, I saw Willie and he had Jimmy Day working with him. Jimmy was kind enough to use one of his breaks to talk to me about various experiences. He told me that he was picking on his steel and without touching the settings on the amp, Buddy jumped in and the guitar sounded good, but 'different'! He said 'it's in the 'hands'. I agree with you all but this one note I thought I'd mention. Getting a nice clean sound from my right hand was a frustrating chore for me. Ted |
|
|
 |
Ted Solesky
From:
Mineral Wells, Texas, USA
|
Posted 13 Oct 2009 6:02 pm
|
|
| I assume I have agreements as per Day's remark? |
|
|
|
Roual Ranes
From:
Atlanta, Texas, USA
|
Posted 14 Oct 2009 4:36 am
|
|
Ted,
Refer to Reece's thread on tone. War upon War but I have seen the same thing you mentioned........different players....same rig.....same settings and two different tones....but some are going to disagree. |
|
|
|
Dick Wood
From:
Springtown Texas, USA
|
Posted 14 Oct 2009 5:31 am
|
|
And to make matters worse,what you hear on stage will change as you move out to the dance floor.
I think the only answer is to get the tone you like on stage and hope your soundman will do you justice out front.
Ted, I was thinkin about gettin some new Photo's of me and was just wonderin if you needed any to sell at the clubs.
_________________
Cops aren't paid much so I steel at night. |
|
|
|
James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
|
Posted 14 Oct 2009 6:40 am Re: 'Looking for tone' part 2
|
|
| Ted Solesky wrote: |
| Years ago, I saw Willie and he had Jimmy Day working with him. Jimmy was kind enough to use one of his breaks to talk to me about various experiences. He told me that he was picking on his steel and without touching the settings on the amp, Buddy jumped in and the guitar sounded good, but 'different'! He said 'it's in the 'hands'. |
When I sit down and play and I have my speakers in a certain spot, I get acustomed to the sound. If I move the speakers back further or angle them different, my sound changes. If Jimmie day stood up and moved away from his rig and heard some one else play, it WOULD sound different to him(Jimmie). I bet if he sat right next to Buddy, he would have heard the same tone. JMO.
Ted, I'll never forget the night you came over to my house at Durant and picked with me. I really enjoyed that. Remember, you were going to a gig at Choctaw bingo? |
|
|
|
Ted Solesky
From:
Mineral Wells, Texas, USA
|
Posted 14 Oct 2009 8:17 am
|
|
| Dick, I could donate them to science. Ted |
|
|
|
Ted Solesky
From:
Mineral Wells, Texas, USA
|
Posted 14 Oct 2009 6:58 pm
|
|
| Jim, I enjoyed seeing those old Sho-Bud's. Hope you like your new place. Was your daughter learning steel at that time? Ted |
|
|
|
James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
|
Posted 14 Oct 2009 8:21 pm
|
|
Yes Ted, She was, but she let marrage get in the way. Someday she will get her priorities straight!!  |
|
|
|
Bo Legg
|
Posted 14 Oct 2009 9:20 pm
|
|
| My tone most be too good. They're always asking me to tone down. |
|
|
|
Ted Solesky
From:
Mineral Wells, Texas, USA
|
Posted 15 Oct 2009 8:35 am
|
|
| Bo, maybe they meant your hair color. Ted |
|
|
|
J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
|
Posted 15 Oct 2009 1:14 pm
|
|
| Roual Ranes wrote: |
Ted,
Refer to Reece's thread on tone. War upon War but I have seen the same thing you mentioned........different players....same rig.....same settings and two different tones....but some are going to disagree. |
I doubt many would disagree with that and what Ted posted.
It could also prove Maurice's point as it would mean that "all" guitars under Day's hands would sound alike; like Jimmy Day playing "a" (like in "any") PSG or under Emmons' hands as "a" guitar being plaid by Buddy Emmons.
... J-D. |
|
|
|
Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
|
Posted 15 Oct 2009 10:51 pm
|
|
Lets face it. There are an infinite number of ways to play!
So theoretically, there are infinite ways that haven't been discovered yet.
Thats a rhetorical statement. 
Style and tone (although general terms), when placed in context of an individual performance or recording, are also unique to the individual, like a fingerprint; and like dancing, everyone does it differently.
The tone, style and sustain a player produces at any given moment in time is the total of all vibrational factors at that moment that we perceive a sound; and like the uniqueness of a players fingerprint, so is the uniqueness of the way a listener senses the vibrations of sound. No two people hear the same thing exactly. So these are "in the ears" of the beholder, as well as "in the hands" and feet and of the player.
Ludwig heard in his mind what his ears could not. Its no little stevie wonder that many great musicians have been blind as well. Maybe they have developed ESP, EPP* and ETP* as well. *pitch, tone
Lets also face this fact, the strings dont play themselves.
Player pianos et. al excluded. We're talking human intervention here.
Given the same conditions and two different players as mentioned, it can only be said that they sound "different" because they are different. Do you ever find its hard to sound like yourself? Thats not a rhetorical question. 
Part of the fun of playing is emulating music you enjoy.
Imitation really is the sincerest form of flattery. I learned most of what I know musically by listening and playing along with recordings. Id love to sound like (fill in favorite artist name here). Im more concerned with the style first (what the player is doing), and then tone (how is the person achieving ) the overall sound. One can mimic a style closely. The tone or color, is just a more specific element of style, not just what equipment and settings were used. Like hairdressing, there's cut, and there's color. Blue is a nice tone, but combined with a mullet for style, well, you get the picture. No offense to readers with blue mullets okay?
Another part of developing a style and tone uniquely yours is creating music "out of thin air" and experimenting; not only "woodshedding" alone, but in groups especially. No one really knows where its going, but theres a flow nonetheless; kinda like a thread about tone, pitch, sustain, style, etc. By combining styles of others they blend into your own.
This is where a player develops a style of their own, so they dont sound like (fill in name here) Call it influence.
Style and tone are not always connected. Some styles are based on a specific tone, as well as the style, or technique itself. Other styles have broad color pallettes of tones; a multicolored mullet in this analogy.
And a tone, like a pitch or effect, can be used in numerous styles. So, while tones are not style specific, the reverse is not always true. Styles arent usually, but can be tone specific.
So, to further circumlocute a topic ad nauseum
My two cents, which may only be worth a penny as a thought '
The style and tone of a player is ultimately unique to the player.
Although one could say style=hands, and tone=any material object(s) used to create a sound, as separate entities, I prefer to maintain that tone is also a choice of the player executing the sound. He colored his mullet blue.
It is in this frame of reference that I adhere to the tone is in the hands, motto, because style is the hands. Since tone is a subset of style, there is an obvious overlap. Maybe tone is in the fingers?
Just like attitudes, opinions and...everyones got one! These are mine.
Dont get charged an arm and a leg, to be waited on hand and foot.
Better to have character, than be a character, and last, another motto I like:
Its not the wand, its the wizard
Clete |
|
|
|
Ted Solesky
From:
Mineral Wells, Texas, USA
|
Posted 16 Oct 2009 3:55 pm
|
|
Clete, your right about a specific sound which style has a part in that, I played with an ol, good singer/geetar player long time ago. He was playin pool at Billy Bob's. We were on stage where he couldn't see us. On break, he was standing in front of the stage and said 'that sounded like you and when I looked to see who's a pickin,, thar you were'.
I guess style shows thru as well. I have some stuff on UTube. You be the judge, I don't see the difference. They have me doing Cold, cold Heart. Ted |
|
|
|
Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
|
Posted 16 Oct 2009 4:35 pm
|
|
| Clete Ritta wrote: |
| Since tone is a subset of style, there is an obvious overlap. |
No doubt.
Players have their "uniquely own" styles and preferences, and each will consciously and unconsciously start drawing a sound/tone that fits the individual player out of any steel and limit what doesn't fit. As a result we'll mostly hear the players "uniquely own" styles and tones no matter what instrument they play.
The instruments, PSGs, OTOH do have their own unique tonal characteristics and ranges, and once a player starts exploring and exploiting the instruments' individuality and uniqueness instead of his/her own, that individuality - tone - gets revealed. Not before, but definitely after.
My NKr .05... |
|
|
|
Roual Ranes
From:
Atlanta, Texas, USA
|
Posted 17 Oct 2009 5:43 am
|
|
Clete,
I really like that line: "Its not in the Wand, its in the Wizard".
I am going to steal that for other occasions. Thanks. |
|
|
|
Ted Solesky
From:
Mineral Wells, Texas, USA
|
Posted 17 Oct 2009 6:31 am
|
|
| Roual, they could have used that in wizard of oz! |
|
|
|
Ted Solesky
From:
Mineral Wells, Texas, USA
|
Posted 17 Oct 2009 7:29 am
|
|
| Roual, sorry about my weird sense of humor. The guys around here are getting used to me. I agree with you all. There many factors involved in achieving the 'tone'. Here's another tangle mess. When I had my good friend, Bud Carter built my first geetar, he asked what type of tone are you looking for. I told Bud, sort of the Emmons's tone. Bud knew what to pick out in wood to get close to what I requested. He did it!. From all the years of experience, he knew what will do what. I know Buddy respects his expertise and Carter, of course looks to Buddy for any helpful, valuble advice. The EMCI is an example. When we opened for Trace Atkins (excuse the spelling) they arrived while we were performing. Steve (steel) was with him at that time. At the end of the set, being backstage all the time, Steve remarked 'that's the best sounding Emmons I ever heard'. I took him to see geetar and he was surprised! I was using a fine Evans amp. I respect Bud's down-to-earth's, honest attitude. He says, 'they're all good. try them all and pick the one that feels good to you'. I' out of hot air. Talk to you all later. Ted |
|
|
|
Ted Solesky
From:
Mineral Wells, Texas, USA
|
Posted 17 Oct 2009 2:19 pm
|
|
| More confusion? Asking for an opinion. On UTube, I use a BMI geetar on 'Working Man' & 'Home in San Antonia'. I use a different geetar in 'Sleep in your arms tonite lady' and 'Sit here and drink' Do I 'sound' the same? This seems to show geetars do make a difference. Maybe? |
|
|
|
Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
|
Posted 17 Oct 2009 4:48 pm
|
|
| Ted, I can't find your videos anywhere on Youtube. |
|
|
|
Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
|
Posted 17 Oct 2009 5:28 pm
|
|
| Quote: |
| Do I 'sound' the same? This seems to show geetars do make a difference. Maybe? |
Yes, they do
Clete's post was excellent and a double-edged sword combined. He did a nice job of explaining how a player may make adjustments so that no matter what instrument he plays he sounds generally the same - leaning towards the "tone is in the hands" argument.
But the same argument also implies that players have to adapt their technique for particular instruments, supporting the fact that inherent tone is a part of each instrument. It's up to the player to bring that to the forefront in a way that their overall *sound* is consistent.
A player's overall sound is a mix of factors. The inherent tone of the instrument is one component. His/her individual style is another, and it's important not to get the two confused - which is unfortunately what happens in these threads.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
|
|
|
Ted Solesky
From:
Mineral Wells, Texas, USA
|
Posted 17 Oct 2009 9:41 pm
|
|
| Try 'Cold, cold Heart'. I, myself found it accidently that way. Vern Hester out it thare for me. He may know aquicker way. Ted |
|
|
|
Vernon Hester
From:
Cayce,SC USA, R.I.P.
|
Posted 18 Oct 2009 12:02 am Tone Part 2 Ted
|
|
I have uploaded 7 tunes for Ted and his group to Youtube.
You can find them by searching Youtube "VGHester".
Or click on this and it will give you the latest one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRq3dfYFK5Y
My friend Lloyd Brigman was here visiting a few weeks back. I uploaded "No One Will Ever Know" with Lloyd playing my MCI.Notice the differnce with playing one of my tunes and Lloyd playing the same guitar with the same Electronics.Lloyd had only played the guitar for about 5 minutes before I videotaped him.Bet if he was playing his Show-Bud or Mullen,would be a total difference in style and tone.
I uploaded a tune sometime ago using My MSA and a Emmons LeGrand.Made some edits and ask the players to tell me which Guitar was on the different parts most got it wrong.
Vernon Hester |
|
|
|
Ted Solesky
From:
Mineral Wells, Texas, USA
|
Posted 18 Oct 2009 6:16 am
|
|
| Vern, interstng about Lloyd. A good point. Thanks for your taking the time to fix the situation. Ted |
|
|
|
Ted Solesky
From:
Mineral Wells, Texas, USA
|
Posted 18 Oct 2009 6:35 am
|
|
| Vern, It worked well! First I hit 'UTube' search and then your name swarch. I hope this gives some of our members ideas. Ted |
|
|
|
Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
|
Posted 18 Oct 2009 5:03 pm
|
|
Here's a few more points regarding tone and style.
Given our scenario of the same steel, amp and settings used by both players, the "tone" of any given note played by either player can have a wide variety, depending on how and where the hand picks the string. These are choices dictated by style first, IMO.
In regards to the same player who changes guitars for recording different songs, thats a choice made by style preference, or perhaps circumstance (only one guitar is available). If a player is given choices of guitars etc., those are conscious choices made by the player as to what the end result will sound like. In the studio, I often stack several different rhythm tracks (played as nearly identically as possible) using different guitars (tones). When spread over a stereo field, a great organic real chorus effect develops, since the tracks are close, but not exactly identical. Granted steel guitar isn't multitracked generally on records, but the choice of guitar is just another shade of green.
Clete |
|
|
|
