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Topic: Anyone ever use a harmonizer? |
James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 27 Sep 2009 10:33 pm |
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| Intelligent pitch shifter or whatever you want to call it. I realize that the pedal steel has great harmonizing capabilities, but some of the dual-voiced harmonizers could create some nice sounds. |
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Jeff Hyman
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 28 Sep 2009 8:19 pm
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I used to use one back in the '80's. It was in a Maxon (Ibanez) multi-effects unit. The pitch shifting was not "intelligent", so you had to stay away from some scale tones. I only used it on one or two songs. It was nice to create the effect of two instruments playing together in harmony like the old western swing bands used to do a lot. An intelligent shifter would probably be worth a try if you are going after that effect. I have a Digitech Vocalist vocal harmonizer in my little studio that has intelligent shifting and creates VOCAL harmonies (not to be used on instruments as you would have a vocal part as your harmony notes). The problem with it is that you have enter programming mode and change the key of the song in 2 places. Of course, it has user definable presets that you could create in different keys. I'm sure there are probably guitar equivalents to this unit.
I checked the description and specs for the POG and it appears that it only generates an octave tone and not actual harmony notes. I could have read it wrong, but that's what I saw in the link above.
EDIT: I went into "dumbo" mode. I use a TC Helicon Voiceworks Plus as a vocal harmonizer in my studio, not a Digitech.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting.
Last edited by Richard Sinkler on 2 Oct 2009 8:47 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Steve Norman
From:
Seattle Washington, USA
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Posted 28 Sep 2009 8:21 pm
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I use the pog 2. It tracks all the bends slides etc with no problems. has 8 presets, can go from church pipe organ to simple one octave tracking. the thing is amazing.
http://www.ehx.com/products/pog2
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GFI D10, Fender Steel King, Hilton Vpedal,BoBro, National D dobro, Marrs RGS |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 28 Sep 2009 8:26 pm
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I read the link about the POG2 also, and it seems to only generate octave tones, not harmony tones like a 3rd or 5th above or below the root. I believe this is what the original poster is asking about.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Papa Joe Pollick
From:
Swanton, Ohio
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Posted 28 Sep 2009 8:27 pm
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| I use a Digitech for recording vocals.I use my midi keyboard as a controler.Easier than programing the thing. Lots of fun doing 3 and 4 part harmonys.. |
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James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 28 Sep 2009 9:40 pm
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THIS one is supposed to be a big leap forward in the harmonizer world.
The cool thing about it is that it has a throughput for another instrument to plug in and it will detect the key based on what your guitarist is playing. Watch the end of the video where he's soloing over a steadily changing key.
I've watched a lot of demos and it seems to nail Allman Brothers and Queen pretty well. |
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Steve Norman
From:
Seattle Washington, USA
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Posted 28 Sep 2009 10:55 pm
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| Richard Sinkler wrote: |
| I read the link about the POG2 also, and it seems to only generate octave tones, not harmony tones like a 3rd or 5th above or below the root. I believe this is what the original poster is asking about. |
sorry bout that you are correct, the pogs only do octaves nothing else.
this does 3rds and 5ths
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM6apnsB75o
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GFI D10, Fender Steel King, Hilton Vpedal,BoBro, National D dobro, Marrs RGS |
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Ernie Renn
From:
Brainerd, Minnesota USA
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Posted 28 Sep 2009 11:28 pm
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I've used a DigiTech IPS-33B since the early 90's. I believe it's very similar to the Vocalist, but the harmony presets are more geared towards instruments, where the Vocalist is geared, as the name implies, for vocals.
I have two, in case one goes down. 
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My best,
Ernie
www.BuddyEmmons.com |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 29 Sep 2009 1:03 pm
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The Harmony Man is pretty impressive, I do have to say. Didn't care at all for the Hog. It was a pretty bad demo. Would never consider one based on what I heard in that video. Maybe a better display of what it could do would change my view (but I doubt it).
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 29 Sep 2009 1:22 pm
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Check THIS out.
There's some cool stuff out there. difficult to decide what to get. |
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Ben Jones
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 29 Sep 2009 3:06 pm
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I really want a Hog or a Pog, but man they are expensive! I mainly want it for organ sounds, but that video had some nice "string" tones too.
I got a used Boss ps5 for $100 and I love that pedal.
Never even tried it on steel, but on guitar it does nice harmonizing, does all the stuff the whammy pedal does, dive bombs and octaves up etc,. detune chorus, etc. |
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Jeff Hyman
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 29 Sep 2009 4:46 pm
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| The HarmonyMan is really impressive. The demo shows the guitarist using his hands to make the changes. Seems it would be a little hassle if on the floor. Does anyone know if there is a rack mountable model available? |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 29 Sep 2009 9:39 pm
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James,
Nice clip showing the synth capabilities of the EHX products. Would still like to see it's harmonizing capability. I think the unit is probably better than what we are seeing in the videos. In the first video, I think the guy said the first slider in the middle set was for a 3rd or a 5th above (don't remember which right now), and then a bunch of octave ones and one that combined a 3rd or a 5th (again don't remember, but it is the other triad tone) above BUT mixed with an octave note. They should have the ability to make a 3rd and/or a 5th (above and below the root) Without having to add an octave note when you don't want one. That's what makes the Digitech a better unit, in my opinion. Of course, the synth abilities of the EHX products is a neat feature.
Jeff,
I don't think it would be any more of hassle on the floor than any other effect pedal that you occasionally adjust. The fact that the Digitech automatically detects the right key just by you strumming a chord into it eliminated the need to manually select the key. And, with 4 presets, I would think that would be enough for any player. Although a rack version would be nice for those that use a rack system.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting.
Last edited by Richard Sinkler on 29 Sep 2009 9:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 29 Sep 2009 9:42 pm
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When it has to be studio or concert quality, I use the H8000 with a Rev Pre.
For other things where I need a little "grit" I use the VHT and the H3000.
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 29 Sep 2009 9:48 pm
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Nothing beats an Eventide, but what is the cost difference? Eventide is (or was) very expensive stuff, but again, the best.
EDIT: Just for kicks, I checked with Sweetwater Music for harmonizers.
Digitech HarmonyMan $300.00
Eventide H8000FW $5495.00
I noticed that Eventide had other harmonizers:
Eclipse (rack mount) $1995.00
Pitchfactor Stomp Box $500
I think from what I have seen so far, is the Digitech is the best bet for the player who will probably only use it a couple times a night (at least I would hope he wouldn't overuse it, like any other effect). Heck I might even consider one.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 30 Sep 2009 1:29 am
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I don't think any of the Eventide products can automatically detect (by audio instead of midi) the key like the Digitech. They have custom scales and more finite configuration. That's kinda cool, but the auto-detect feature of the Harmonyman is trumps for me. They thought to include a built-in effects loop and tuner, the latter of which makes the size of the pedal bearable since I could knock my current pedal tuner off of my board.
EDIT: it seems the higher-end Eventide $bling$ rack unit can harmonize chords. I wonder how well it handles a morphing chord on a pedal steel. Not that I care, considering the price tag. |
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Steve Norman
From:
Seattle Washington, USA
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Posted 30 Sep 2009 9:12 am
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the pogs track slides and chords no problem, I imagine that the eventide has no problem at all.
I really wish I had that digitech back in 84. woulda killed with the dio covers.
The one thing about the digitech auto key thing that scares me, it really only assigns a scale based on the chord you play. you have to play the proper root chord for it to lock on. In other words you have to know what your relative major or minor chord is, and then play it clean to get it in the box. this eats into set up time. I personally would rather just set my key by hand, or tap through key options with my foot on a song by song basis. I personally dont see the autofind as a great thing.
Also I would imagine on a steel this would be a problem due to difficulty in staying exactly on the chord during the loading process.
very cool technology though, seems to be more useful to guitarists, as steel players like you said can easily play harmonized scales without efx. I use the pog to get organ sounds on rock and blues songs, but do my own 3rds 5ths and 6ths.
If you get one make a youtube! I would love to hear the results.
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GFI D10, Fender Steel King, Hilton Vpedal,BoBro, National D dobro, Marrs RGS |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 30 Sep 2009 11:12 am
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| Quote: |
| very cool technology though, seems to be more useful to guitarists, as steel players like you said can easily play harmonized scales without efx. I use the pog to get organ sounds on rock and blues songs, but do my own 3rds 5ths and 6ths. |
It is geared more for guitar players (have you ever seen anything from Digitech for a steel?), but steelers use guitar products all the time. While it's true we can play harmony notes without this, I doubt that you could play a fast single note run and play the appropriate harmony notes at the same time. This would fall under the category of twin leads as used in western swing, rock, and other forms of music. Think Allman Bros., Doobie Bros, Leon McAulliff and Eldon Shamblin, Buddy Charelton and Leon Rhodes, and the list goes on...
On the Automatic Key detection, it should work just fine. I saw the demo's on Digitech's site, and apparently, you hold down the right pedal, play a chord into the pedal (the sound output is muted so the audience and other band members can't hear it) and away you go. Couldn't be simpler. And you do have the option to select the key manually. EDIT: I do wonder that if you are slightly off fret or out of tune (with tempered tuning, we are probably considered out of tune to the unit), will it still be able to identify the chord accurately?
The side chain feature is neat if you have a dedicated rhythm player. Unfortunately, in 38 years of playing, I have never been in that situation. The guitar player was always dual purpose playing rhythm and lead. I'd hate to hear the Digitech when the guitar player played lead (of course you probably aren't going to play harmony notes - other than chords - when he is playing lead).
Another question I have is about the distortion loop. As I do use a distortion pedal occasionally, if it is hooked to this loop, can you still use the distortion without the harmonizer being turned on? None of the video's I viewed or the owners manual I read say anything about it.
I don't know how good the Eventide harmonizes chords, but unless it can analyze the chord and play harmony notes that are the same as what's in the chord already, you will most likely end up with some altered chord that may have dissonant notes in them. This would be true of any harmonizer. I think they are meant more for single note input.
MORE EDIT: I think I will pick up a Digitech and test it out. I do have some songs where it would sound good to do twin leads.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting.
Last edited by Richard Sinkler on 30 Sep 2009 11:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 30 Sep 2009 11:24 am
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This was my set up, around decade ago, for film scores. The photo was taken at The Village. I had three H3000's, that were cascaded, in the rack. Sometimes all of them would be used and other times, just one or two. Harmonizing notes on a steel guitar is easily available without any effects. What my Harmonizers do for me is "extend" what the guitar is capable of, and keep in mind, this is for film scores. As an example, for huge "organ" kinds of things, the 1st would repeat octaves up into the 2nd which was repeat octaves down into the 3rd with a slight chorus delay. This made a full spectrum organ sound with a simple 1 or 2 note input. Or I could have a few repeats with 5ths or 4ths if I needed a pretty "cloud".
The H8000 has 2 engines, is not as "friendly" as the H3000, and does everything but go out and get lunch for you.
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 30 Sep 2009 11:43 am
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Chas says:
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and does everything but go out and get lunch for you. |
Heck, it should at least be able to dial Pizza Hut and order a pizza for you. 
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 30 Sep 2009 11:56 am
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| Richard Sinkler wrote: |
Another question I have is about the distortion loop. As I do use a distortion pedal occasionally, if it is hooked to this loop, can you still use the distortion without the harmonizer being turned on? None of the video's I viewed or the owners manual I read say anything about it.
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I've read several threads on the unit on thegearpage.net and harmony-central.com. The effects loop is ALWAYS on. That means you can throw your volume pedal in the loop, as well. |
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Steve Norman
From:
Seattle Washington, USA
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Posted 30 Sep 2009 12:55 pm
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| Richard Sinkler wrote: |
| but steelers use guitar products all the time. |
I agree, I use a pog as stated before, clearly aimed at guitar players but works great on steel, and EHX makes a grand total of zero products for steel guitars. Im not so closed minded that I wont use something unless its made for steel. I was saying the advantage to steelers (in my humble opinion) seems low, as we have more uncertainty in our intonation that may throw this off, and we have harmony capabilities tha may make an octave pedal a wiser investment.
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| While it's true we can play harmony notes without this, I doubt that you could play a fast single note run and play the appropriate harmony notes at the same time. |
This is a great point. Playing a fast line singly or with 2 strings doesnt seem that different of a degree of difficulty to me, but I see your point. It would also be cool if you could get a different tone on the harmony so it sounds like a different instrument, get the Speedy West/Jimmy Bryant sound going. If it works while you are playing 2 strings at once that would make a pretty epic harmony as well.
EDIT: I do wonder that if you are slightly off fret or out of tune (with tempered tuning, we are probably considered out of tune to the unit), will it still be able to identify the chord accurately?
that was my point, if you are silent you cant hear your intonation, and I wonder if it will guess correctly.
Also like I said, I am curious to hear peoples experience with this as I may want one myself if it works out.
Good thread here.
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GFI D10, Fender Steel King, Hilton Vpedal,BoBro, National D dobro, Marrs RGS |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 30 Sep 2009 2:50 pm
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I would really like to get two of the Digitech units, sit down with another guitarist (with a lot of time on our hands) and plug each other into the chord-detection inputs. And... play, just play.
  
I've tried the intelligent pitch shifters on my Digitech RP250 and Boss VF-1, but if you dial up just the "shifted" tones and listen, they've really gotten squashed in the frequency range. I'd bet the Digitech is using the same circuitry. I guess there might be a reason some people use the $5000 gizmo?  I really have better luck with the mono synthesizer module on the VF-1, mixed with straight signal. But only for guitar, my steel just doesn't hunger for anything except competence & time. |
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Jim Kennedy
From:
Brentwood California, USA
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Posted 30 Sep 2009 3:14 pm
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The fender Cyber Twin has a god harmony effect that seems to work pretty good. It is poly phonic and sems to track pretty good, even bends and slides. The presets are for a 12 string sound and the classic Allman Brothers harmony sound. It is pretty easy to adjust and can be set to just about anything you want. Of course the price is a little stiff if you do not need an amp. I have never tried this effect on pedal steel.
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ShoBud Pro 1, 75 Tele, 85 Yamaha SA 2000, Fender Cybertwin, |
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