Anybody use a C13, or E13 tuning on pedal steel?

Fred Glave · From: McHenry, Illinois, USA

I'm thinking of picking up a non-pedal steel, and have been exploring the different tunings. It made me wonder if some of the non-pedal tunings are, or have been used on pedal steel.
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b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

For a while Buddy Emmons added a C# to the middle of his E9th, making it an E13th. In fact, the E9th evolved from the E13th. The C# string was eliminated because it was so easy to get with the 1st pedal.

The back neck of the standard D-10 is, of course, based on the most common non-pedal tuning: C6th.
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Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

I have a C# in the open tuning of my U-12 so I guess you might say it's tuned to E13/B13. I've been using that since around 1993. It gives you a few angles on things that are kinda off the beaten path.

Jussi Huhtakangas · From: Helsinki, Finland

I have E13 w/ five pedals on the midneck on my T8 Bigsby, I like it alot.

Fred Glave · From: McHenry, Illinois, USA

Bob, wouldn't your example of Buddy's be more of an E6th with the C#? The C# on the 5th string would be the 6th interval from the lowest E. A C# on the next octave up would be more of a 13th, right? From what I've heard from some of the non-pedalers is that there is a distinct difference in the sound of a 6th tuning than that of a 13th. I don't know if it is because of the layout/order of the strings, or because of the different octaves.
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Matthew Prouty · From: Warsaw, Poland

There is a steel player here in the Phoenix Area, Doc Buffington, that has his S12 Sho-Bud tuned to E13. I am not sure what his copedent is but I heard him play and it sounded very old school or C6 sounding.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Fred,
Buddy's E13 12-string tuning had a D in it.
(and also a low tonic E)

E6 has no D.

A 13th chord is from the Dom7 family
A Major6 chord is only 1 3 5 6

FWIW
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Fred Glave · From: McHenry, Illinois, USA

So a 13th chord will have 1,3,5,6, and 7th interval note? So why the D is in the 9th tuning? 1,3,5,7,9 Whew! The F# is a 2 and a 9.
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Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Why the D in the 9th tuning? Because a '9th chord' is actually a Dominant 9 chord, which is built on a Dom7 chord.
E7 is E G# B D
E9 is E G# B D F# (add the 2nd note of the 2nd octave up -- the FIRST one is the 2nd. An octave above that one -- called the 'upper partial' -- is the 9th -- one tone above the '8th' -- an octave above the tonic / root tone)

A 13th chord is a member of that same Dom7 family. In the strictest sense, a 13th (Dominant 13) chord is built on a Dom11 Chord
E11 is E G# B D F# A (1 3 5 7b 9 11)

Then add the 13th from the upper 'partial' (higher octave)
The formula is 1 3 5 7b 9 11 13
That would be E G# B D F# A C# -- Yep -- a SEVEN NOTE CHORD

Many omit the 11th or even the 9th.

You may want to check out a beginner's scale and chord theory book.
In addition, there are several sites on the web with good, reliable info
Here is one
http://www.thecipher.com/chord-construction.html

It all makes more sense and you see the logic if you just build from 3 note chords (maj, minor, aug, dim)
Go to 4 note (just a few examples -- not an exhaustive list)
....Maj --> Ma6, Ma7, Dom7
....mi --> mi6, mi7
....aug --> aug7
....dim --> dim7
....Then go to 5
....Ma7 --> Ma9
Dom7 --> Dom9
....Then to 6 notes
....Ma9 --> Ma11
....Dom9 --> Dom11
etc.
Continue until your head explodes. Whoa!

Remember that (with VERY few exceptions) all chords are built from those three note chords (triads)
Maj = 1 3 5 . . . . . Mi = 1 3b 5
Aug = 1 3 5# . . . Dim = 1 3b 5b . . . . . Just build from those.

The more notes a chord (or a tuning, for that matter) has, the more different simpler chords are contained within. This 13th chord has more than a dozen different 3, 4, 5, and 6 note chords. For example, in E13 (with all 7 notes) in the open position, you will find a bunch of other chords in E -- like EMaj, E7, E9, etc. But you also find DMaj, DMaj7, F#m, F#m7, G#dim, G#dim7 -- chords based off almost all strings.

Tommy Morrell was a true master of the E13 tuning. It is closely voiced for single note stuff but as the last paragraph explains, it has powerful chord potential. Great tuning -- great player. Many others from the western swing direction had a very powerful tool in the several varieties of the 13th chord tuning.
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My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

I am about to use it. I have already added an inside out C# just after the high G#.
Really, what got me on to it are several things.
I play an universal but, since the 9th string "D" is missing, opening up the tuning, I found that, thinking "universally" I only need to recreate that note only once. I set that change now on LKL lowering the 8th sting "E" to "D" hereby removing the B6th pedal.
I really seem to be taking off a lot of B6th pedals lately, since I feel I can do most things out of the E9th pedals and lever combinations. But, I also always felt a void around the top main strings... the tuning above the middle G# is quite wide spaced... then, there are the inside out chromatics to counteract that void.
Many here will know by now that I like Speedy West's playing, although I want in no way imply that I can do it. Still, I have been studying his so called F#9th tuning for many, many nights. I have come to the conclusion that in fact it was much more an E13th tuning... just with a dropped 5th (B to Bb). His #1 change was to raise it (back) to B with a pedal (turning F#9th into E13th), possible out of technical limitations of his guitars. Actually, when you look this way at his tuning, his other changes make much more sense and one realizes that his swing tuning is all available on a standard E9th with 3&5 than on C6th which is more dark voiced too.
Zane Beck's "universal" was also a true E13th as he had his middle E tuned to D-open. Again, some of Zane's playing at times is reminiscent of Speedy's late slower playing... much more "complex" stuff going on out of the thinner strings (again, a difference to common C6th playing).

I am not yet at the bottom of it all. If I could accept changing to a Day setting of my A&B pedals, I would probably try a Zane Beck setup adding one more Speedy West change... maybe that's what it will end up being... right now, I am dabbling with approaches based off a standard E9th+ but with the top C# worked in somewhere.

... J-D.

Jussi Huhtakangas · From: Helsinki, Finland

Food for thought; the original owner of my Bigsby also had a Marlen Speedy West. Here are papers that were in the case. I don't recall which one he actually had on it, but they're interesting tunings nevertheless:

Fred Glave · From: McHenry, Illinois, USA

Very interesting Jussi. Never saw an E9 tuning like that, but I've heard of variations that players talk about.
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Fred Glave · From: McHenry, Illinois, USA

On a standard C6th pedal copedent pedal 7 raises the C to D and the A to B. That should give you a 13th. Is that right?
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b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

On C6th, P6 + the standard knee lever lowering C to B gives you D13th, exactly the same intervals as E13th. You can see the old E13th at the 2nd fret.

Fred Glave · From: McHenry, Illinois, USA

Thanks bOb, my 5th pedal raises string 9 and 10 up to F# and D respectively. I can lower my C to B too. Isn't the pedal 7 move that gives you a D and B just as good for a 13th? I also have G on string #1.
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Jim Bates · From: Alvin, Texas, USA

Yes, I have used an E 13th pedal version since late 1969, and am still playing it every Saturday at the JAcinto City Opry (Houston area). I had played the non-pedal version (McAuliffe's) since 1954 on my Fender T-8, and was totally 'crippled' by the E 9th chromatic PLUS I did not want to waste time trying to change my technique. What I use is:
(l-h) E B D E F# G# B C# E G#

I have shown my chopedant on the Forum several times before, but I will send it again after I get home from travel. (I will warn you that this is a hard tuning to play if you already are trained to the E 9th chromatic.)

Play your own thing!

Thanx,
Jim

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Fred Glave · From: McHenry, Illinois, USA

bOb, I push my 5 pedal to raise C to D, F to F# and use my lever to lower C to B. That should give all of the ingredients for a C13th. The root would be on string 7 (C).
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Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

On C6, one common way to get a 13th chord is to go back one fret from the open root position (e.g., C at the 12th fret -- then go back to 11) with P5 and P6.

Play strings 5,4,3,2 no pedals -- fret 12
Play the same again with P5+6 at the 11th
Play the same again with no pedals at fret 12

That's C6 --> G13 --> C6

P5 + the C to B lever will not give you a C13 chord.
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My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

Curious that this Topic should arise at this particular point in time! I'm in the process of possibly going to 12-strings and calling my Basic-Tuning E13th. My Open~Tuning will be:
E13–---Also----C6.
F#-------------D
D#-------------B
C#-------------G
G#-------------E
E--------------C
B--------------A
G#-------------G
F#-------------E
E--------------C
D--------------A
B--------------F
E--------------C
With pretty much standard Copedents on both necks. Actually (9-P & 8-K)
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Fred Glave · From: McHenry, Illinois, USA

Larry, doesn't that also get you a diminished chord?
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b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Right you are
Guess we have G13b9 -- it is a cool chord
Just play 5,3,2 for a skeleton of the 13th chord.
That's b7 3 and 13
With G played by the bass (which, on a V chord, it probably will be) you convey the Dom7, Ma3, and the 13th on top.
(I like the other note too for a V chord -- didn't look closely enough at what notes were there)

Yes, Fred. Those pedals can give a Dim chord. There are several chords if you choose your strings properly.

Sorry if there was confusion.
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

Brian Pelky · From: Portland, OR

Hi Fred. Actually, your pedal 7 on the C6th neck gives you a nice Maj9 chord. If there was a 13th ABOVE the B note, then it would give you a Maj13 chord. But, you can get a cool C13th chord by hitting pedal 8 and grabbing strings 3,5 & 7 at the 9th fret. Also, try playing this chord, and then slide the bar back to the 3rd fret while keeping pedal 8 down. This now gives you a very jazzy C7#9 with the root on string 10. I believe Buddy used this chord on cut 1 of "Steel Guitar Jazz"...check it out. Maybe Buddy can confirm, but I'm pretty sure that's what he's doing.
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