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Topic: timber timbre |
ebb
From:
nj
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Posted 17 Sep 2009 5:52 am |
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http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090914111418.htm
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| Judging the tone quality of a musical instrument in a blind test is, of course, an extremely subjective matter, since it is a question of pleasing the human senses. Empa scientist Schwarze is fully aware of this, and as he says, “There is no unambiguous scientific way of measuring tone quality.” He was therefore, understandably, rather nervous before the test. Since the beginning of the 19th century violins made by Stradivarius have been compared to instruments made by others in so called blind tests, the most serious of all probably being that organized by the BBC in 1974. In that test the world famous violinists Isaac Stern and Pinchas Zukerman together with the English violin dealer Charles Beare were challenged to identify blind the "Chaconne" stradivarius made in 1725, a "Guarneri del Gesu" of 1739, a "Vuillaume" of 1846 and a modern instrument made by the English master violin maker Roland Praill. The result was rather sobering – none of the experts was able to correctly identify more than two of the four instruments, and in fact two of the jurors thought that the modern instrument was actually the "Chaconne" stradivarius. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 17 Sep 2009 6:17 am
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Nya - nya - nya - nya - nya! 
Tone schmone! Quit perplexing about the stupid "tone" and just play the durn thing! 
(Thanks Ed, I owe 'ya one.) |
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Al Collinsworth
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Posted 17 Sep 2009 6:49 am
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Last edited by Al Collinsworth on 11 Nov 2009 3:08 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 17 Sep 2009 9:43 am
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| Horst Heger of the Osnabruck City Conservatory is convinced that the success of the “fungus violin” represents a revolution in the field of classical music. “In the future even talented young musicians will be able to afford a violin with the same tonal quality as an impossibly expensive Stradivarius,” he believes. In his opinion, the most important factor in determining the tone of a violin is the quality of the wood used in its manufacture. This has now been confirmed by the results of the blind test in Osnabruck. The fungal attack changes the cell structure of the wood, reducing its density and simultaneously increasing its homogeneity. “Compared to a conventional instrument, a violin made of wood treated with the fungus has a warmer, more rounded sound,” explains Francis Schwarze. {Italics mine} |
IMO, nothing has been "confirmed". The only thing "confirmed" is that this panel of respondents stated a preference for a specific violin. There are lots of other variables besides the fungal treatment that could account for differences in this violin's sound, and different people might have chosen differently. Nor does any of this overturn the fact that in the 1974 test, nobody could identify any more than 2 violins, and so-called "expert" jurors mis-identified the modern violin as the Chaconne Strad.
If one does the analysis, one can see that if the tests were done without bias (for example, were responses made secretly so respondents didn't know how others responded, to avoid a 'herd' response?), then the probability that 90 out of 180 people would randomly and independently all guess the same violin out of the four "sounds best" is about 3 x 10-13. Of course, one would expect with a pretty high probability that the number would be around 25% of 180, or 45 respondents.
But to probabilistically argue that the fungal treatment is the reason for the preference, one would need to isolate that variable out further. For example, one could compare a sample of fungally-treated and identically constructed (as much as one can control that) violins (with appropriately large N to randomize other possible causative variables) with a similar sample of non-fungally-treated violins. If one could show statistically significant differences in the way listeners responded to these two different groups of violins when many properly randomized sound samples of each were presented, that would be much more powerful evidence of causality. |
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Jeff Evans
From:
Cowtown and The Bill Cox Outfit
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Posted 17 Sep 2009 10:52 am
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| . . . determining the tone of a violin is the quality of the wood used in its manufacture. |
Implicit in the interesting search for what causes these instruments to vary tonally — varnish, infestation, drought-influenced wood density, application of a pest preventative solution — is the conviction that the instruments do vary tonally.
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| Tone schmone! Quit perplexing about the stupid "tone" and just play the durn thing! Muttering |
Colour, schmolour, painters! Quit obsessing about your palettes, brush strokes, and density, and just shellac the durn canvas! |
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Al Collinsworth
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Posted 17 Sep 2009 11:15 am
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Last edited by Al Collinsworth on 11 Nov 2009 3:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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John Steele (deceased)
From:
Renfrew, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 17 Sep 2009 12:05 pm
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I've deleted this post in order to dedicate more time to teaching my backyard squirrels to tap dance.
- John |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 17 Sep 2009 1:30 pm
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| Quote: |
| Implicit in the interesting search for what causes these instruments to vary tonally — varnish, infestation, drought-influenced wood density, application of a pest preventative solution — is the conviction that the instruments do vary tonally. |
Well, not really. One simply needs to be curious enough to know IF the instruments vary enough tonally to be distinguishable. One doesn't need to believe they do to test the hypothesis that they do. In fact - IMHO, if you really want to know the truth about this, have someone who doesn't care about or have a vested interest in the result run the experiments.
Personally, I'd rather just play my guitars. I'm only shooting holes in the argument that anybody has 'confirmed' anything. Sorry - when we get into this domain, my analytical nature takes over. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 17 Sep 2009 2:21 pm
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| Jeff Evans wrote: |
| Quit obsessing about your palettes, brush strokes, and density, and just shellac the durn canvas! |
Yeah, sort of. Ever see the paintings of Jackson Pollock? Google him sometime...might surprise you.
Of course, if you're not into art that looks like a painter's drop-cloth, you might want something a little more well-defined. Check out the art work on this link, and then realize that for what this work sold for a few weeks ago, you could buy about 30 new Ferraris or Rolls Royces.
http://www.mutualart.com/Artwork/Composition_in_Black_and_White__with_Dou/F6FCFEE72370CB10?Promo=3DE4F191D6FAA70A |
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Rick Campbell
From:
Sneedville, TN, USA
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Posted 17 Sep 2009 4:05 pm
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Maybe Antonio Stradivari had a case of jock itch. 
Seriously, this violin thing has been analyzed to death. It's a misconception that the Stradivarus violins sound better than any others. They were probably among the best of their time, but there's violins being made today that are just as good. Serveral of these blind test support this. This is like saying no steel guitar will ever be as good as an early model Sho-Bud.
Also, the misconception that "the older the violin, the sweeter the music". I've got a theory that the good violins get taken care of and therefore last through the years, whereas the bad ones are busted up by kids, etc... The antique value and good sounding violin are not as related as most people think. I've got violins that are 150 years old and some that are a few years old, and all in between. The ones I like to play, I like for different reasons, but the age of the violin is the least of them.
A good bow is very important too. Some players have bows that cost more than their violins.
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Jeff Evans
From:
Cowtown and The Bill Cox Outfit
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Posted 17 Sep 2009 10:31 pm
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Treasured for possessing sublime acoustic properties, these rare instruments have spawned dozens of theories attempting to explain their legendary tone, and luthiers, makers of stringed instruments, are still trying to reproduce it.
. . . luthiers since Stradivari’s time have tried to reproduce the classic “Strad” sound. Some claim the secret lies in the craftsmanship, others the varnish, others the wood. Virtually every aspect of the violin has been touted as the key. Scientists, too, have tackled the question from various angles.
Some chemical analyses suggest that the smooth, mellifluous tones may have resulted, in part, from an application of an oxidizing mineral such as borax, often used in Stradivari’s day to prevent woodworm infestation. Dendrochronology, the study of annual growth rings in trees, suggests that the wood Stradivari used grew largely during the Little Ice Age that prevailed in Europe from the mid-1400s to the mid-1800s. Long winters and cool summers produced very dense wood with outstanding resonance qualities, the thinking goes. The dense wood also helps the instruments stand up over hundreds of years of use.
— http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/11/081108164152.htm |
For the avant-garde, how about a carbon fiber fiddle? (Why haul around that old back-breaking, Eyetalian boat paddle anymore?)
— http://www.luisandclark.com/violin.php |
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