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Topic: Beginner Question - String Buzz....what can i do |
Jon Schimek
From:
Lyons, Co - USA
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Posted 31 Aug 2009 7:37 am |
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Hello,
I'm very new to PSG and have a setup issue. I have tried checking several websites and tried searching the forum, but can't find my answer so I'm posting...Sorry if this is a common question that I've missed the answer to....
Anyways I picked up my first PSG this weekend. Based on previous posts to this website, I bought a 80s? BMI S-10 used on craigslist locally. Overall I'm happy, but strings 2-5 seem to have buzz against the slide unless I put a lot of pressure on them. It seems like a setup issue, but I'm not sure how to resolve it.
Where would I adjust the bridge/neck height of the strings? Do I just need a thicker gage string? I think changing to new strings would be a good idea, but I'm a bit nervous about that task at this point.
Overall nothing looks bent or dented, so I'm hoping it's one of the hundred adjustment points, but I don't know where to look.
Thanks in advanced for any tips.
-Jon |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 31 Aug 2009 9:15 am
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A certain amount of left hand pressure is necessary to avoid buzzing. As a beginner, you will take a while to get a feel for it. You shouldn't have to press very hand, else your hand will not be relaxed enough.
First, be sure that you are using the right string gauges. One extra thick 6th string could cause your problem.
The height adjustment you asked about would be done only at the left end, by using nut rollers with different groove depths. Most guys don't even bother with this. On a standard 10 string E9, your bar should lie flat on the tops of strings 3..10. Loosen and push aside strings 1 and 2, and look at how your bar lies on those 8 strings.
I'm not sure why you get a buzz on string 2, but not on string 3 (again, check the string diameters). String 3 would normally have the worst buzzing problem, and you can help this a lot by putting deeper grooves in rollers 1 and 2. Still, even that is not worth the trouble for most players. |
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Jon Schimek
From:
Lyons, Co - USA
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Posted 31 Aug 2009 9:49 am string buzz
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Earnest,
Thanks for the tip, I'll have a look at the string gauge.
Strings 2 through 5 have buzz, so I have buzz on strings 2,3,4, and 5...sorry i didn't make that clear. I understand some pressure is needed, but I've used a few other folks PSGs and this is much more than other pedal steels I've tried.
-Jon |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 31 Aug 2009 10:27 am
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| And I suppose it's possible that the nut rollers already have different depths, but somebody put them in the wrong places. You should be able to see that. |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 31 Aug 2009 11:18 am
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| Do they buzz when played open, without the bar? Do they buzz less if you have your bar at the 12th fret? Are there grooves worn into the tops of the changer fingers by the strings? |
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Martin Weenick
From:
Lecanto, FL, USA
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Posted 31 Aug 2009 1:06 pm Buz
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Are these the strings that came with the guitar? If they are, they could be any guage especially if he was selling the instrument. He might have replaced a broken 4th. string with who knows what. The best thing for you to do now is replace all the strings. Then you will know you have the right guages. You will have a better sounding guitar and you can see where you stand on the buzz problem. Strings size may be your only problem. Martin.
_________________
Several custom steels. NV-112 Boss DD-7 |
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Walter Bowden
From:
Wilmington, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 31 Aug 2009 4:58 pm
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I agree with Martin. A new set of strings will eliminate some uncertainty. Plus, changing out a set of strings is a good way to get to "know" the guitar.
_________________
Emmons S10, p/p, Nashville 112, Zion 50 tele style guitar, Gibson LP Classic w/Vox AC30, Fender Deluxe De Ville and a Rawdon-Hall classical |
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Randy Gilliam
From:
San Antonio, Texas, USA
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Posted 31 Aug 2009 6:15 pm Heavier Bar
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Jon, If all else fails, Get a Heavier Bar. Randy G.  |
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Jon Schimek
From:
Lyons, Co - USA
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Posted 1 Sep 2009 7:58 am Thanks.
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Thanks for all these tips. I'll start with changing the strings. I took a look last night and I do think the 4th string seems a bit thick. I'm surprised it would make that much of a difference. Seems as I get closer to the pickup buzz goes away in most, but not for all strings.
Also, the bar I'm using I think may be light and not made for a PSG. I think it's just an extra long lap steel bar...
Anyways, this gives me a few things to look at and should keep me busy for a while.
Thanks,
Jon |
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John McGuire
From:
Swansea,Illinois, USA
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Posted 1 Sep 2009 8:20 am
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| When you change the strings check to be sure the rollers are turning at the keyend. It will also help to lube the rollers with a SMALL amount of 3 in 1 or similar oil. A drop of oil near each roller and work em with you finger before you put on the new strings. My S-10 BMI had a buzz on string 4 and the roller was just dry. Go to the Carter website and click of Steel Guitar Maint. Great info for changing strings etc. And a heavier bar may also help if you still have a problem. I would get a BJS as there really is a difference, at least to me. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 2 Sep 2009 10:19 am
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| Normally, buzzing is only evident on the lower frets. If you're getting buzzing half way up the neck, you're either not using enough pressure on the bar, or the changer tops have grooves in them. (I suspect the latter.) |
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David Nugent
From:
Gum Spring, Va.
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Posted 2 Sep 2009 12:24 pm Buzz
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| Jon...are the strings in tune when the pedals are depressed and do they return to pitch when released? If the seller replaced the strings with improper gauges (and assuming the steel was setup correctly to begin with)the strings should be out of tune when the pedals are engaged. My advice to be on the safe side, would be to have the guitar properly set up by a qualified mechanic, thus eliminating any question of mechanical issues. |
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Jon Schimek
From:
Lyons, Co - USA
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Posted 15 Sep 2009 8:36 am Finally got around to it
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So i finally got around to working on this the other night and didn't quite have the success I had hoped. Before starting I ran by my instructor who agreed the buzz I was having was excessive and that it seemed like the rollers may be in the wrong order.
I went out and bought a new set of strings. Took the old ones off, cleaned and lubed the rollers and took a look. From what I could tell, the rollers did not appear in the correct order, so I sorta eyeballed it, putting an old string in to see what sort of clearance I had...
So I basically rearranged my rollers such that the depth was relatively close to the string gauge, i.e. deeper grove ~= thicker string.
Fortunately I cleaned and lubed all the mechanics and everything seems better... Unfortunately I still have significant buzz.. i think it shifted a string or two higher now.
So I think it may still be a roller order issue. Anybody here have tips on how to determine which roller depth? I am not excited about taking off the strings... i really need to find my guitar winder before taking this on again... my wrist still hurts. |
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Jon Schimek
From:
Lyons, Co - USA
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Posted 15 Sep 2009 8:37 am Finally got around to it
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So i finally got around to working on this the other night and didn't quite have the success I had hoped. Before starting I ran by my instructor who agreed the buzz I was having was excessive and that it seemed like the rollers may be in the wrong order.
I went out and bought a new set of strings. Took the old ones off, cleaned and lubed the rollers and took a look. From what I could tell, the rollers did not appear in the correct order, so I sorta eyeballed it, putting an old string in to see what sort of clearance I had...
So I basically rearranged my rollers such that the depth was relatively close to the string gauge, i.e. deeper grove ~= thicker string.
Fortunately I cleaned and lubed all the mechanics and everything seems better... Unfortunately I still have significant buzz.. i think it shifted a string or two higher now.
So I think it may still be a roller order issue. Anybody here have tips on how to determine which roller depth? I am not excited about taking off the strings... i really need to find my guitar winder before taking this on again... my wrist still hurts. |
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Brick Spieth
From:
San Jose, California, USA
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Posted 15 Sep 2009 5:38 pm
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| Newbie to newbie, do yourself a big favor and get a cordless screwdriver and the kind of string winder that can go in a drill chuck. It is the only way to go when changing PSG strings. Also, get a BJS bar. This is money well spent. I'm not qualified to comment on your string buzz problem. |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 15 Sep 2009 6:09 pm
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| Quote: |
| do yourself a big favor and get a cordless screwdriver |
Brick - All my screwdrivers are cordless.  |
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Brick Spieth
From:
San Jose, California, USA
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Posted 15 Sep 2009 11:04 pm
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| What, you've never had one on a lanyard so it would always be handy? I did that until it got caught in a tuner and darn near strangled me. Doesn't work to well with a drill press either. |
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Bill Ford
From:
Graniteville SC Aiken
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Posted 16 Sep 2009 8:59 am
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Jon,
If you have a way to measure the grooves...dial caliper, or thread micrometer, start with #10, working your way to #6,largest/deepest groove in order to progressively smaller. Then #5,and #2 will be real close,#4, and #1 also close, #3 .011 will be the smallest groove.
Make a chart of the string gauges as the one below,on another sheet have 10 squares. As you measure the grooves, mark that # above the square, and put the roller there, then when you have measured all the rollers you can sort then accordingly,placing them under the string #.This is the way I did my MSA when I changed from universal to ext E9, you will probably still have some buzz, but it will be acceptable.
Good luck..Bill
_________________
Bill Ford S12 CLR, S12 Lamar keyless, Misc amps&toys Sharp Covers
Steeling for Jesus now!!! |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 17 Sep 2009 5:32 am Re: Thanks.
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| Jon Schimek wrote: |
Seems as I get closer to the pickup buzz goes away in most, but not for all strings.
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That would indicate it's probably not an issue caused by irregular string height. Either you have a mechanical problem (rollers buzzing or grooved changer tops), or your bar-hand technique is wrong. I see that you're from the "USA". I'd advise you to get a knowledgeable player who's nearby to look at your guitar and assess the real problem before you go willy-nilly changing things. |
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Eugene Cole
From:
near Washington Grove, MD, USA
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Posted 19 Sep 2009 1:04 pm Holding the bar
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When you hold the bar make sure that your ring finger and pinky are resting on the strings. Those fingers mute the string between the nut and the bar and they also (to a degree) help maintain the string spacing beneath the bar (reducing buzz).
The other issue which one wants to investigate is the bar itself. I had a Stevens Steel which wore unevenly and got to a point where I replaced it with a different Steel. A heavier bar can reduce the tendency for strings to buzz. If you have to press the bar down much at all you will not relax your hand enough.
_________________
Regards
-- Eugene <sup>at</sup> FJ45.com
PixEnBar.com
Cole-Luthierie.com
FJ45.com
Sierra U14 8+5 my copedent, 1972 MSA D10 8+4, and nothing in the Bank. 8^) |
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Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
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Posted 20 Sep 2009 10:50 pm
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Don Burrows BSG Steel Guitars makes gauged rollers.
I have used him several times and he is very good.
http://bsgsteelguitars.com/
_________________
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes |
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Eugene Cole
From:
near Washington Grove, MD, USA
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Posted 21 Sep 2009 7:34 am
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| John Billings wrote: |
| Do they buzz when played open, without the bar? Do they buzz less if you have your bar at the 12th fret? Are there grooves worn into the tops of the changer fingers by the strings? |
Jon; the answers to these 3 questions would be very helpful to all of us with regard to diagnosing the problem.
Since you are a beginner I wanted to explore another nuance of playing. Many players pull the bar back off of the high strings when we are not currently playing on those strings. This distributes the prussure over fewer strings (giving more pressure on the barred strings) and many feel that it reduces string noise when sliding the bar.
I have a fourth question: I am wondering if the string buzz reduces when you pull the bar back off of the high strings and if-so when/where does the buzz get more or less prominent when you only bar some of the strings? |
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Jon Schimek
From:
Lyons, Co - USA
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Posted 21 Sep 2009 8:53 am Anwers
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I've got somebody local working with me on this PSG. I think the buzz is reduced with my current roller configuration. I'll have him take a look this weekend. Right now I'm battling with a few issues with this steel getting it to fit my height.
Still I appreciate all the tips and I may check with Don if we determine it's the roller depth.
So I'm going to have to double check later tonight but I think I can answer these questions:
Do they buzz when played open, without the bar?
<JS> No. I don't believe so
Do they buzz less if you have your bar at the 12th fret?
<JS> I believe so.
Are there grooves worn into the tops of the changer fingers by the strings?
<JS> No. when I changed the strings, i didn't notice any grooving.
I am wondering if the string buzz reduces when you pull the bar back off of the high strings and if-so when/where does the buzz get more or less prominent when you only bar some of the strings?
<JS> With the latest roller changes, the bar must be on the middle strings to get buzz. The high strings seem to be better... it think the 4th string is high. |
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Jon Schimek
From:
Lyons, Co - USA
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Posted 24 Sep 2009 9:33 pm Thanks
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Just wanted to drop a quick thanks to everybody. I went ahead and got a caliper to accurately choose the roller order.
It sounds much better without buzz, and it's easier on the hand.
Thanks again,
Jon |
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