If E9 + pedals = A6, why not get an S10?

James Mayer · Posted 20 Aug 2009 9:23 am

What changes in the C6 neck make it worth have a separate neck to lug around and learn? I know there are a lot of obvious reasons, but I'm really wondering what you guys would miss the MOST if someone stole your C6 neck.

The question also assumes you can't do without an E9 neck, which is probably not the case for everyone here. It also assumes weight and setup time is important to you, which it may not be.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

fwiw, I have 5 Pedal Steels.
All Single Necks.
All Universals.
One 8-string, one 10-string, three 12-strings.

With that said, while I think an S10 E9 could get me through all the San Antone Rose and similar swing tunes with either E's lowered or A+B down, I would miss the standard 6th pedal changes for more advanced chord voicings.

I flirt with the idea of a loaded D12 every now and then, untill I pick up someones D10.
Also, I hate changing strings.

Hey James, let me know if you have a gig coming up or would like to get together to talk steel.
'Would love to hear what you've got going on with your playing and ideas you've discussed here on the forum.
Pete B.
cell: 503-621-8209

Tom Campbell · From: Houston, Texas, USA

There is a fellow in our steel club that has his 12 string tuned to B6 as the open tuning and raises the Eb's to E to make the E9 tuning.
I have 3 Sierra 12 strings...notice I didn't say U12.
I eliminated the so called C6 pedals and use the 10,11,12 strings for creating bass run(s) and pads for the guitar and keyboard player. If I had to do it over again, I would go with a 10 string with a few extra pedals. Its all related to what type of music you want to play (master of one vs, jack-of-all-trades) Oh Well

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Each to his own. I think it was Buddy that said "When you try to combine both necks, you lose a little of each".

What I miss might not bother you (or anyone else). All my guitars are D10's, but I still believe everything is a compromise. So just pick one and play. I play what I like, and I could care less what anyone else thinks. Cool

What you play isn't nearly as important as how well you play it. Winking

Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

I dont have a C6th neck, but one thing I envy about them that i cant get on an E9th are those nice low BASS NOTES. Its cool to have that lower register that E9th cant really offer with its string gauges

From the other thread that might have inspired this one where the new player is wanting a uni or D10...I said if I had to do it it all over again I'd start on a uni...my interest in the uni wasnt for the swingy 6th stuff, it was more for the rock stuff and I think I would modify my uni to further serve that end by having a strumable power chord on those first two strings. so probably a different reasoning for me than others who want the uni or D10 for the swingy stuff.

James Mayer · Posted 20 Aug 2009 4:01 pm

Ford Cole · From: Texas

Here's a question from a relative newby--Would the voicing of the rest of the band be a factor? Say you have a great bass or keyboard player would the lower register be as important or maybe even in conflict at times with the other parts? Same for the upper register?

Ryan Barwin · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Jeff Evans · From: Cowtown and The Bill Cox Outfit

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I think that once you've actually played both E9th and C6th for a while, you come to appreciate the differences.

First of all, "E9 + pedals = A6" is an extreme simplification. It just tells you how to get an A6th chord, not how to play jazz chords.

Secondly, the E9th has 5 strings per octave where the C6th has 4. This makes E9th easier for melodic runs and C6th easier for chord changes. Two different mindsets.

Third, E9th has the high notes and C6th has the low notes.

Fourth, E9th pedals work in octaves, C6th pedals don't. This makes it easier to play triad music on E9th and easier to play music with extended chords on C6th.

All of those points are addressed in the U-12 copedent with varying degrees of success. U-12 combines 90% of the E9th with 90% of the C6th. If you knock it down to 10 strings (U-10), you'll only have 70% of the C6th.
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Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

hey b0b
I can understand your 90% calculation for the E9 portion of the E9/B6 (one string out of 10 is missing although I'd really prefer to get it by lowering 8 E to D or raising 9 B to D in most instances). I think the deficit is more like 1 or 2%, but I won't press that point.

But what's the 10% of C6 that's missing? Any pedal changes you want can be there and the open tuning intervals are identical to C6 with both the G and D on top -- with a high 6th tone (G# -- like a high A on C6) to boot. In my book that's BETTER than the C neck of a D-10. You can even play 'Steelin the Blues' in C -- try THAT on C6. Very Happy

I can (or at least COULD at one time) play every C6 tune on the Black Album note for note. A D-10 with D on top of the C6 needs the G on top for a couple of those tunes. Just curious how you reckon 10% of C6 is 'missing' with the B6 portion of E9/B6.

I hear a lot of folks who make this kind of statement. When I played a D-10 I was constantly switching necks, either for the intervals or just the low notes. The ability to do this without changing necks has to be worth something. I'd argue that it easily makes up some of this perceived deficit.

Most of the people who I hear make these arguments have never actually owned or played gigs on a U-12.
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2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

Larry Allen · From: Kapaa, Kauai,Hawaii

I solved this problem by adding a low E (.056)on the 10th string that lowers down to C# with my F lever....my 9th is B (.038)that lowers to A with my A pedal. Extended E9...with some other mods I did on my pulls I can get any chord...If you're interested email me and I'll send you my copedent chart.Larry

Stu Schulman · From: Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)

Larry has a very cool tuning maybe he'll post it. Very Happy

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Tony Dingus · From: Kingsport, Tennessee, USA

Jan Vissor uses a 10 string universal. 9th string is B and 10th tring is A.

Tony

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Larry, the "missing 10%" I was referring to was in pedal and knee lever changes. Most U-12's don't have the C6th's 4th pedal, C# lever, or the half step raise and lower on the A strings that have become fairly standard in recent years. To have these things you would need

1) a pedal that raises both G# strings to A#
2) a lever that raises both B's to C
3) a lever that raises middle G# to A
4) a lever that lowers middle G# to G

Given what the E9th changes add to the copedent, I'm sure that these missing changes aren't a serious problem to U-12 players. My point is simply that they are usually missing on a U-12. That's why I say that the U-12 has "90%" of the C6th.

90% + 90% = 180%. The U-12 has considerably more capabilities than either neck of a D-10.
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Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Most C6 players don't have A to B on P4 any more. I have the equivalent of G on top which is one of the main reasons for C to C# (to get the next inversion, like the F lever three frets up -- which you get on the same fret with the G on top), is it not? The other changes you mention are really not on most D-10's now, are they, b0b?

If you really need those changes they can be added as C6 players do -- in the middle -- over the B6 pedals. Yes, you'd end up with 10 or so levers and you'd have to move your leg to use them but they can be installed. If you have an Excel guitar or one of those changers with 10 raises and 10 lowers you can add all you want. I know that Bill Stafford has the G# to A (only on 6) in the 'middle stall' on his S-14. I have G# to G (same as A to Ab on C6) on all 3 G#s but could change that to just the middle one if I wanted to.

The reason the changes you mention aren't on my guitars is that they aren't important to me. I could have them if I wanted them -- JUST LIKE ON A D-10. Like I say, my guitar is capable of playing ALL the C6 instrumentals (Raisin' the Dickens, Kicks to Boot, Highland Swing, etc. -- yes, even Four Wheel Drive -- which I used as a break tune for years) on the Black Album without adding or changing ANYTHING.
Sorry, it ain't -10% in my book.
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My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Glad to back off on that one, Herb. You're probably right. I can remember Mike Smith telling me that he had removed it years ago. I agree that it is useful -- Buddy still had it last time I saw his setup.

That's really neither here nor there. The point I'm trying to make is the fact that I don't have it on my U-12 doesn't mean it's a deficiency in the E9/B6 concept, only that it AIN'T ON MY GUITAR. That change, and all those mentioned by b0b, can be on a U-12 just like they can on a D-10. Often, U-12 players are rather 'casual' sixth tuning players and may not have the 1/2 tone up and down levers (on strings 3 and 4) Buddy has made popular and I've noticed that the 4th pedal has disappeared from most factory U-12 setups. It disappeared from mine more than 30 years ago.

The fact is, if you want to optimize your U-12 or U-14 guitar for B6 you can have all the standard (or 'semi-standard') C6 changes you feel you need. You can tune 4 and 8 to D# and have B6 as the open tuning if you wish. Therefore, it's not really a 'deficit' inherent in the universal tuning concept.
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

ebb · From: nj

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

Ed
I'll record a few samples of how I use the change and get back to Forumland shortly.
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Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

On my C6, I put half stops on both A's going from A to Bb to B on a KL. I was amazed that I actually got it to work! (with help from Jim Palenscar of course) After some tinkering with string gauges, all the pulls are timed just right. Now it's the one of the best changes I've got. It's a good thing too, cuz I've always loved pedal 4!

John Allison · From: Austin, Texas, USA

James, it seems to me that at the heart of your question is the concept of the A6(C6) non-pedal tuning for lap or console steel.

If you're used to C6 or A6 lap steel you can find it very easy to go A/B down and enter familiar territory. I even had my E9 (strings 9 and 10) tuned to give me a full A6 tuning across 7 strings. The shortcoming is that it turns a pedal steel into a lap steel - there aren't too many ways to enhance that tuning with other pedals or levers - the E-Eb lever for a flat 5 is a good one, though.

With the C6 Pedal steel (as well as the 12-string Universal), there's an incredible range of possibilities for harmonized chord melodies and complex extended chords for comping. Even as a beginner on C6 pedal I've been able to find my way into jazz and swing chord progressions that I simply couldn't begin to find on non-pedal.
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Allison Stringed Instruments
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Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

Okay, here's some examples of how I might use P.4 with its current setup of raising s.4 & s.8 A-B.

First would be as a unison with s.3 lowered to B with the knee lever, as exampled in this paradiddle lick.

Another unison-type riff would be an octave lick with s.4 and s.8, like Lloyd Green did (on E9 w/p.1), as used in I Can See Clearly Now.

In combo with the C-C# lever, there's this melodic riff idea, among others, for use in a major key/chord.

In a minor key, the pedal offers an adjacent 1/2 tone to s.3 (C), as shown in this example, or in this version of Besame Mucho, in combination with p.5, p.6, and the A-Bb lever.

I also use the pedal melodically in 13th chords in combination with p.5., on strings 5, 4, 3, 1, and 2. Especially useful in Hank Thompson and Bob Wills tunes... but then again, I live in Texas. Others here may not be so fortunate. Wink

There are some opportunities where p.7 or the C-B lever could be utilized, true. But to get the sound of a note moving up or down on s.4 in combination with the unchanged s.3 or s.1, p.4 is hard to beat.

These are some, but not all, of the ways I use the pedal. I might come up with something offhand in the heat of musical battle that will light the light bulb and click. One convenient thing is that I can use one foot for C6 pedals and not two commonly used in the p.5/p.7 combo. Your mileage may, as always, vary.
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My rig: Infinity and Telonics.

Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

question:

If E9 + pedals = A6, why not get an S10?

short answer:

Probably because now you are at the 6th tuning with pedals IN and restricted.

The C6 neck is with NO Pedals and offers a variety of stuff to add.

ebb · From: nj

thanks herb

so would be fair to say that you use this like the A pedal on the 9th side.

possibly one of the reasons larry left it off?

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