which steel for best sustain?

Terry Sneed · From: Arkansas,

just curious as to which steel guitar that forum members think has the best sustaining ability above the 15th fret. and please don't say it's all in your vibrato, and your volume pedal. Smile

I think most steel players on the forum, know that your vibrato and VP has some bearing on sustain. But I'd like to know if you think a particular steel guitar sustains better than most.
Sorry fellows, I forgot to add MSA and Derby to the poll.
I appreciate the answers from the ones that stayed with the question. I assure you, there ARE certain steels that sustain better than others. And I was certain most forum members new that. Oh Well

Terry

Bill Dobkins · From: Rolla Missouri, USA

Terry, of course I vote for the Ritt, But honestly I've only played 3 steels. A Nashville LTD, a Derby which should be included in your poll and the Ritt I play now. My Ritt has an unbeleavable sustain. IMHO
BD
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Billy Carr · From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)

Stock guitar, I've found the Rittenberry has it above the 15th fret easily. Rains is right behind it.

Brian Henry · Posted 15 Aug 2009 2:45 am

This is the wrong question. It should be which player has the best sustain above the 15th fret? My vote would go to John Hughey - it was just the same on his Emmons, his JCH and his Zumsteel
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Bill Duncan · From: Lenoir, North Carolina, USA

MSA of course!
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Bill Ford · From: Graniteville SC Aiken

I vote with tbhenry !!!
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Ulric Utsi-Åhlin · From: Sweden

Yes,Bill...the -70´s Dekleys & MSA´s usually have
INCREDIBLE sustain,zero fret to infinity...but it´s
true that some pickers have the ability to make ANY
PSG sound like it´s got sustaining qualities SUPREMO.
McUtsi

Steve Broatch · From: Newcastle, England

Of course it's all in the hands etc but I've found my steels all sustain differently in my hands.

My ZB and Rains go on forever without much effort on my part. But my Mullen RP which is actually my favourite steel, I have real trouble getting any long sustain higher up the neck even using excessive vibrato. I even tried swapping the stock single coils out for some XR-16s. The tone changed a little but it had little effect on the sustain of the guitar.

David Wright · From: Pilot Point ,Tx USA.

where is the choice for MSA... Oh Well

I know there isnt a lot out there Muttering

Well I see no Sierra Either...

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I do agree that there is a certain level of "natural free vibrational sustain" in a guitar - do a controlled strum of the strings, and there is a "natural free vibrational decay" in vibrational amplitude. In this context, "free vibration" means that the strings are excited impulsively at the start and then allowed to "freely decay."

But I think there are too many differences attributable to individual differences within the same brand/model plus how the guitar is set up, tweaked, and maintained to make broad-brush statements by brand, even if you were to factor out player technique differences. I have owned or played different examples of the same brand/model that, to my ears, had different levels of sustain - either guitar or pedal steel. But I'll admit, I've never instrumented them and recorded the decay envelope - those observations are purely from listening.

My experience is that two of the most important variables are the nut/roller-nut and bridge/changer for guitar/pedal steel, respectively - any problems there go directly to sustain. If I have a sustain problem, they're the first places I look. Anything not tightly coupled at the string endpoints sets up an independent degree of vibrational freedom, and can add significant vibrational damping, which reduces sustain.

Of course, as already noted, player technique is critical to the control of sustain. A steel guitar is a driven, not a free, vibrational system - this means that the player supplies energy to the strings via picking and bar control. Picking supplies the initial energy impulse, but bar control (or lack thereof) can supply (or drain) energy as the string decays. Then there's the effect of the volume pedal, which can be enormous.

My opinions.

Franklin · Posted 16 Aug 2009 12:42 am

David,

No worries. The Franklin did not make the list either. I'll sustain all the way to the bank before anyone notices Winking

Thanks to all for the prayers! Dad is out of intensive care. He even took a little stroll this evening.

Blessings to all,

PF

Franklin · Posted 16 Aug 2009 1:37 am

Terry,

On a serious note. Listen to how many times a player has to strike the strings when playing certain brands. If you truly want a comparison, listen to recordings by various players who have recorded with different brands.

Hal picked his strings more often on his Professional Sho-Bud. When he played other brands I noticed him sustaining more and picking less.

Buddy utilizes a lot more sustain as in the black album version of Blue Jade than his Sierra. I've noticed that when Buddy plays the Blade he picks less. Same is true with John Hughey. He picked less on his Emmon's. I also noticed at Jeff's jams that Lloyd picked less on his JCH.

Musicians usually play to a guitars strength and avoid its weakness. If a guitar has more sustain adventurous musicians usually explore that side of the instrument.

Tone and sustain are two entirely different issues.

PF

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Eureka. I saw Buddy play the second phrase of Blue Jade in one swoop on an Emmons at ISGC. There aren't too many guitars that will allow that.
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Ken Byng · From: Southampton, England

I have plumped for Emmons, but I'm surprised not to see ShoBud listed.
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Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

My Zum out-sustains my p/p above the 15th fret........I agree w/ David Wright and others; some other guitars need to be added to the list.

Franklin
JCH
MCI/EMCI
BMI
ZB
Sho-Bud
Sierra
MSA
Jackson
Show-Pro
Fessenden
Williams
ProMat
etc.

you get the idea!

Don Brown, Sr. · From: New Jersey

Don't forget DERBY on the list. Quite a few pro's have gone to playing one.

Franklin · Posted 16 Aug 2009 12:08 pm

b0b,

The type of sustaining move Buddy made is nearly impossible on a Sho-Bud professional. On my Bud's I would have to strike the strings along the way up the neck to play a slow version of Blue Jade which became very frustrating for me. After hearing Buddy and other PP players make long phrases, like the one you mentioned, with one single strike of the strings. I switched to an Emmon's PP because of its long sustaining notes.

These days, I can play all the long sustaining notes I want anywhere on the fretboard. Some players don't need a lot of sustain because of how often they pick the strings to accomplish their musical style. I sometimes pick a single note and play complete melody lines with it. I like to emulate the Ebow sustain with the pure sound of pedal steel.

PF

Terry Sneed · From: Arkansas,

Franklin
JCH
MCI/EMCI
BMI
ZB
Sho-Bud
Sierra
MSA
Jackson
Show-Pro
Fessenden
Williams
ProMat

Yep, all these should have been included to the list. But I just put down the ones I thought of when making the post.I appoligize . Smile

Paul, very good input on the sustaining abillity, and lack of, on different steel guitars.
Very glad to hear your dad is doing better also.

Thanks to all for your input.

Terry

Trevor Fagan · From: Newfoundland, Canada

My '71 Emmons beats my beloved Sho~Bud hands down when it comes to sustain (at any fret).... no contest. Tone, on the other hand, well... I'll save that one for another time Very Happy

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Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

David Doggett · Posted 17 Aug 2009 4:03 pm

My Emmons p/p S12 has better sustain anywhere than my Sho-Bud Pro III D10, Carter D12, Zum S12U, or MSA Millennium S12U. It is interesting to hear Paul discuss how such differences affect phrasing. Maybe we should have been discussing the superior sustain of the Emmons p/p all along, rather than get involved in the tone wars. Sustain is a more easily measured and less subjective aspect than tone.

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

Back to Blue Jade--On reflection, it occurred to me that the second phrase (which starts with the bar at the 13th fret) is probably intrinsically less sustainable than the first phrase (which starts at the 1st fret), thanks to the vibrating string length when the strings are struck being half as long, so the amplitude of vibration obtainable by the initial strike is less.

Off topic--now, back to which guitar is best for sustain.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Black guitars sustain best. Razz

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Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

Just my personal experience:

My Emmons guitars... I've had many... generally had the best up-the-neck sustain. Some more than others.

My metal neck Fessendens, especially the 3rd one I had built by Dick Miller and sold by mistake to Wayne Franco, had excellent UTN sustain. My current wood-neck Fessy, less so, but still good.

My Sho-Buds all had excellent tone down-neck, but died above the 14th fret.

The Mullen guitars I've had, excellent machines though they are and great sounding below 12, all were problematic with sustain in the upper frets.

Paul made a good point that tone and sustain are different animals. I think metal necks sustain better in general. Bobbe Seymour is of the opinion that metal necks don't contribute to the sound because he's played guitars with no necks attached and they sound the same, but I disagree. Perhaps the metal itself doesn't contribute to the sound, but the mounting method does. Since a wood neck connects to the body completely, while a metal neck has hollow sections, there may be less dampening effect on the cabinet with metal necks. But I don't know... I'm not a physicist or an engineer, just an old picker.
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Franklin · Posted 18 Aug 2009 9:33 am

Herb,

I too, disagree with any assumption that the neck does not matter with the sustain. Metal neck PP's had more sustain than the wood neck PP's. Ron Lashley explained that the e Alluminum necks were mounted different from the wood neck PP's.

Paul

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