Minor Keys and Key Signatures

Sonny Jenkins · From: Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx

James,,as I've stated before in "that" other thread,,,I think the reason you can't find the answer is that you are looking for something that doesn't exist. There is no such thing as a "minor key". If there is, could you please show us what that key signature looks like? How many sharps or flats in that signature? There is only the related minor chords within the major key, indicated by the key signature. It is just that in country music we are used to the major chords being more prevalent,,but in the music you are probably relating to, the minor chords are probably more prevalent. If you play a song that only contain the Am, Dm, and Em (or G7), you are playing a song that is in the key of C (no sharps or flats in the signature). Some may say, what about the classical songs where the name implies a "minor key",,,I would ask,,,,what is the key signature?

James Mayer · Posted 11 Aug 2009 2:55 pm

Sonny Jenkins · From: Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx

James,,,if the song truly IS in the "key" of Am,,,what does that key signature look like? If I sat down at a piano to play a song that I'd never heard before,,,that had nothing but minors in it,,,what would the key signature look like. I contend it would be signatured in a major key,,,,one of the 11,,,not eliminating anything. You're referring to "modes",,,and I'm referring to the question relating to "keys".

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

Sonny Jenkins · From: Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx

Brint says,,,",IMO "key signature" relates only to the notation of music on paper."

It is that very notation of music on paper that allows a person to play a piece of music they have never heard before. What would "tell" a person the song is in a "minor key" (if indeed there were such a thing)? There are only major keys, with a possibility of 11 chords, granted, any one of those 11 chords can be modified dozens of different ways,,,even to allow a piece to resolve to a minor mode of the I chord,,,,but it is still signatured as a Major key.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Not true. A minor key doesn't have a complete "key signature" because the notes of the scale change depending on context. In the key of C minor, for example, the 7th tone of the scale is Bb when playing on the Cm or Fm chord (i or iv), but it changes to B when playing the G7 chord (V).

We write the key of C minor's "signature" as 3 flats because we have to write something, but saying it's the same as Eb major doesn't capture the essential nature of the minor key experience. They may have the same key signature, but they aren't the same key.
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Sonny Jenkins · From: Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx

I wish Mike Ihde, or some "voice of authority" would chime in on this. If my contention is not correct I would certainly like to know,,,even though it is not the kind of thing that would effect how or what I play (meaning I'm not into too much classical depth,,,LOL).

I don't think I've ever seen or heard of a key signature that indicates a "minor key". Until I learn otherwise, I'll have to stand on that.

Ga McDonnell · From: N GA, USA

"I don't think I've ever seen or heard of a key signature that indicates a "minor key"....

Am - no sharps or flats
Em - one sharp
Dm - one flat
Bm - two sharps
Gm - two flats

This could go on for a long time.....

It's all in the books.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

David Doggett · Posted 12 Aug 2009 9:28 am

Sonny, you are confusing the issue by misusing the fact that a minor key may have the same key signature of its relative major to claim there is no such thing as a minor key. With all due respect, this is just a wrong. Since you admit you don’t have a lot of depth in music theory, please read the information here: click here.
Pay particular attention to the very first sentence, “In music, the adjectives major and minor can describe a scale, key, chord, or interval;” and also a few sentences later, “Major and minor are frequently referred to in the titles of compositions in their foreign language form, especially in reference to the key of a piece.” Therefore, it is certainly part of the conventional terminology of music to speak of minor keys, and to compose and improvise in minor keys, and to label these forms as minor keys.

The simple fact is that “the key signature” and “the key of a piece of music” are not the same thing. The key signature of a minor key piece may be the same as the key signature of its relative major key, and that is apparently what is confusing you. But the minor key piece does not revolve around and resolve to the same root or tonic note; the scale beginning on the root of the key (the minor key root) has different intervals (b3 and possibly b7); and the chord progressions are different.

You can find a little further discussion of the concept of key here - click here - where there is specific mention of the “sometimes contradictory ways” the term is used. Here again you will see discussion of both major and minor keys.

You might also benefit from reading up on minor modal terminology and concepts: click here. While a minor scale may correspond to the Aeolian mode of the major scale, beginning on the 6th degree, that refers only to the natural minor scale, also called the descending melodic minor scale. However, the harmonic minor scale, also called the ascending melodic minor scale, does not flat the last note, but keeps the intervals the same as the major scale. Therefore, as b0b mentioned, a composer who wants to use only the harmonic minor scale may write a different key signature than the relative major. So it is not even true that the key signature of a minor key piece is always the same as the relative major key signature.

So you are simply seizing on the fact that often the key signature is the same for a minor key and its relative major to wrongly claim there is no such thing as a minor key.

I’ll repeat the comment I made in a previous discussion of this. If you want to play an unknown piece in Am, and you tell the band it is in the key of C, you will deservedly get a train wreck.

I hope you take my comments and the others as respectful and well-meaning corrections in what seems to us to be a misleading use of terminology, and not as a put-down. Putting our ideas out and having civil discussions about them is the only way to learn our mistakes and gaps in knowledge. It's a good thing. Smile

[Note: Wikipedia is written and edited by the on-line public. It is not infallible. But I didn’t see anything wrong in the linked discussions. They are simple and directly to the point, and that’s why I linked to them rather than to any of the many other more authoritative sites that say the same thing, but not always so simply and clearly.]

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

From the Wikipedia page on key signatures: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_signature

Sonny Jenkins · From: Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx

Ga,,,my point exactly,,,if I saw a key signature with no # or b,,,,, that has, since the beginning of music history, been the key signature for C, which has it's relative minor as Am,,,,but it is still signatured in C,,,,,which is what ALL my post have stated!!!,,and if I picked up a piece of music that had no # or b, would I assume it is in the key of C,,,,or would "something" tell me it is in the key of Am???,,,,my contention,,,,Am is NOT a key!

b0b,,,that is exactly what I have said in every post,,,since there is no way to indicate a "minor (so called) key",,,the key signature is major (of the relative minor).

I think if you will re-read my post you'll see that we have all agreed

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

There are minor keys and it is important to be able to be able to recognize and understand the difference between Am and C major.
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Sonny Jenkins · From: Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx

Thanks Bob,,,,if this were a piece of music I had never seen or heard before, what would be the signature that would tell me it is in "Am"?

I understand the difference between C chord and Am chord,,,but what is the difference between the key of C and the (implied) key of Am,,(if in fact, there really is a signature that would in fact tell me that this piece is in "Am".

And I for one really do appreciate this opportunity to have these 2 questions answered by someone with a musical education,,,,I need all the enlightenment I can get,,,,LOL.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

James Mayer · Posted 12 Aug 2009 10:46 am

Sonny, the chord progression will tell you if it's in a minor key, regardless of what the key signature indicates. Your ear will confirm this. I think you are placing too much emphasis on notation which has many many many weaknesses when it comes to conveying the finer points of music, IMO.

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

Mike Ihde · From: Boston, MA

David said it best, but for my 2 cents...

Are the tunes Summertime, My Funny Valentine, The Thunder Rolls or Stairway to Heaven major or minor tunes? The answer, of course, is that they're minor tunes. How do you know? Because the one chord is minor and the five chord is a dom7.
Does the key signature look any different? No, because the only reason a key signature exists is to let you know what notes are available and what key they come from but the G# on the E7 chord (in an A minor tune) would have to be written in as an accidental.

No musician has EVER said, "Let's play My Funny Valentine in Eb." They always say,"Play it in C minor."

So the answer is in the chord progression, not in the key signature.

Sonny Jenkins · From: Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx

Hey Mike,,,thanks a million for chiming in. I'll be the first to admit my need for and my appreciation of enlightenment. I Guess it is just easier for my simple mind to keep track of the implied minor key if I keep them mentally filed in the relative major folder. If I see it signatured with 1 b, and hear Dm,,,and Gm,,,and maybe a C7 or Am,,,I can't help but think of the key of F major.

We certainly appreciate your input,,,wish we could see you here more often!!!!

Max W. Thompson · From: Texas, USA

Thank you Mr. Hannay and Mr. Ihde.

It is all in the context. As far as the key of a piece of music, the key signature only indicates the set of 7 notes (out of 12) that are most likely to be used in the piece. It doesn't mean that other notes can't be used in the piece. That's what accidentals are for, to indicate that you need to play one of the other 5 notes not indicated by the key signature. This happens all the time, in all kinds of music. In many country tunes, like "Your Cheatin' Heart", when the chord changes go to what you all call a Major 2, such as a D chord in the key of C, you all of a sudden have an F# note in the key of C. If written out, it would be an accidental. Why is it there? Because it makes the music more interesting. If we only used I, IV, and V for all our music...well, that's another thread.

As far as minors go, look at the key signature, and then play the tune. If it is in a minor key, it will sound minor, and as has been said, it will generally resolve to a minor chord. And please note, that is "generally". As soon as someone came up with rules for this stuff, someone else came along and did it differently, just to prove that it could be done diferently. Kind of like, "I don't think Bach done it this-a-way", to paraphrase one of the great masters.

Ga McDonnell · From: N GA, USA

There are songs that will go in and out of a minor mood throughout, and some like The Shadow of your Smile, and Lullaby of Birdland that have a minor flavor most of the time but finish up with a strong major chord.

And I think Bobbe Seymour has a version of Steel Guitar Rag that he plays in an E minor key.

It's something that isn't worth a lot of sleepless nights.

Don Walters · From: Saskatchewan Canada

David Doggett · Posted 12 Aug 2009 4:31 pm

Yes, many songs modulate from the minor key to its relative major. Sometimes they come back to end in the minor key, sometimes they end in the relative major. The key is named by the starting key, because, well, it's good if everyone starts together in the same key. Smile

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Jim Means · From: Missouri, USA

Let me try to cause a little more confusion on this subject! Mr. Green

When charting a tune in A minor (C Major) using the NNS do you chart it from the standpoint of the Major Key with the C being 1 or the minor key with the A minor being 1? If I am just charting it for myself, I do it from the Major standpoint with the C being 1. But if you were charting it for a house band, say like one of the steel shows, how would most of the players rather see it.

Jim in Missouri
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