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Topic: Emmons Student: Loctite? |
Ben Elder
From:
La Crescenta, California, USA
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Posted 5 Aug 2009 1:27 am |
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Never one to shrink from trying to recapture treasures lost in stupid transactions, I am now trying to get an Emmons student model up and running. I'm curious about the function of the non-factory brackets shown in the first two pics, mounted on the player side of the body. Music holder for the severely myopic? Diving board? Loafer pad?
More troubling is the red goo on the changer bolts in the third photo. I've seen Loctite discussed here (never quite visualized or understood what was being described). Is this it? Wouldn't this be counterproductive to all well-intended use? Like tuning pedals and the knee lever?
Does it need to be removed and if so, how?
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"Gopher, Everett?" |
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Ian Sutton
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 5 Aug 2009 5:48 am
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In my opinion, it seems the loctite was put there to stem someones lack of patience and/or understanding of how to properly adjust the guitar? If my memory serves me, I think the red loctite is "permanent" though, you might want to double check that.
Best of luck.
Ian |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 5 Aug 2009 6:54 am
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I think if you apply some heat to the allen screws, you can break them loose.
That should soften up the Loctite. |
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Steve English
From:
Baja, Arizona
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Posted 5 Aug 2009 7:05 am
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Ben,
Acetone (finger nail polish remover) will take the loctite off. If it were me, I'd remove the screws in order to clean them. Use Q-Tips and acetone to clean the changer. Be careful with the acetone.
The loctite serves a purpose. Some people put springs on the screws.
That guitar is probably a 70's model??? That would have been during the height of the c.b. radio craze....That might be a homemade mic clip there good buddy 
_________________
Always remember you're unique..... Just like everyone else |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 5 Aug 2009 7:55 am
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| Quote: |
| I'm curious about the function of the non-factory brackets shown in the first two pics, mounted on the player side of the body. Music holder for the severely myopic? |
Yeah, judging by the slots, I'd say someone had a music stand of some sort inserted in there (a real Rube Goldberg attempt, at that).
The "red goo"? LEAVE IT ALONE. It's not hurting anything, and was splathered all over the place to keep the screws from moving. (The factory-installed product that was on the screws probably was worn and wasn't working well, and the owner got a little "over zealous" with a re-application, that's all.) If you clean it all off, you're just going to have to buy new locking screws (that already have the locking patch applied - expensive), or re-apply some substitute yourself.
Don't waste time looking at the underside and making it "pretty". Set it up and play it!  |
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Doug Palmer
From:
Greensboro, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 5 Aug 2009 8:10 am Gs-10
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Ben, if it were mine I would remove the tuning screws the take the changer out. Find something to remove that locktite. Re-install it and put new nylock screws in. I have them if you need a set email me and we'll get you some. If you are gonna fix it do it right.
Doug
_________________
Emmons D-10, ST-10,LD-10 III, NV-112,Fender Deluxe Reverb. Authorized wholesale dealer musicorp.com! |
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Curry Coster
From:
Glen Burnie, MD USA
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Posted 5 Aug 2009 3:44 pm
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Ben-
If you take the screws out to clean them,whatever you do, DO NOT remove ALL the LOWER screws from the endplate at one time--you'll never get them back in. Do them one at a time, replacing the screw into the endplate before you take the next one out.
I don't know why that is, but I guarantee you trouble if you remove them all at once.........
Curry |
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 5 Aug 2009 3:52 pm
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'Blue' thread lock is best for fasteners that need to be tweaked.
'Red' is normally for 'permanent.
_________________
A.K.A Chappy. |
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Ben Elder
From:
La Crescenta, California, USA
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Posted 5 Aug 2009 5:02 pm
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Thanks for all the replies. To the extent that this arts-major can make sense out of Winnie Winston's book and the Carter website, I see that these bolts are made to stay put--the adjustment takes place elsewhere. (That was my concern--how to adjust if they're locked? Now I get it...) I only have the All-Pull half of a brain. Since I see where a spring is probably missing and that the only (E-Eb) KL is RKR (why?), this will probably have any serious physical work done by a pro, Jim Palenscar.
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"Gopher, Everett?" |
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Richard Damron
From:
Gallatin, Tennessee, USA (deceased)
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Posted 5 Aug 2009 5:33 pm
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| Be very leery of ANYTHING done to that instrument by the guy that applied the Loctite. Loctite is to be used on the threaded portion of the screw and NOT slobbered all over the place like he was white-washing a fence! Per another post, blue Loctite allows relatively easy removal of the screw. Red Loctite needs to be really heated before it will let loose. Be careful when using that blowtorch! Just kidding. Do be careful. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 5 Aug 2009 7:00 pm
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I doesn't need to be heated at all. As mentioned before, acetone (nail polish remover) will handle it - so will lacquer thinner or MEK. Just keep all those solvents off of finished wood or plastic parts.
IMO two far better systems than Loctite are 1) a wrap or two of white Teflon plumber's tape around the threads (they'll "jam" the threads a bit, which is the whole idea) but leave no residue) or 2) a tiny drop of superglue - superglue has tremendous adhesion in a straight-pull but low shear strength; it'll keep the screws in place but they can still be easily turned with a proper tool - screwdriver, Allen wrench, nut driver etc. The advantage to the superglue is it's not visible (when I say a "tiny" drop, that's exactly what I mean).
Whoever did that Loctite slop job was a complete amateur, so (as mentioned) I'd check EVERYTHING on the guitar for "foolishness".
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 6 Aug 2009 6:46 am
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Someone advised a while ago that a good way to apply the Loctite is to remove the screws, apply the Loctite to the threads and then place the screws in an oven and bake them until the loctite dries onto the threads.
Makes for a much neater installation. |
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Richard Damron
From:
Gallatin, Tennessee, USA (deceased)
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Posted 8 Aug 2009 8:34 am
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| Although acetone may remove a surface film of RED Loctite, it has ALWAYS been recommended that heat - in the neighborhood of 300 to 400 degrees F - be applied to the threaded portion of the joint so as to soften the material. I have difficulty imagining how one would soak a threaded joint in a bath of any solvent in the confines of a PSG without doing irreparable damage to something. One could hope that the dummy who applied that mess of Loctite didn't put it on the threads but assumed - erroneously - that slathering everything around it would serve the purpose. The chemistry of Loctite is such that it will harden IN THE ABSENCE OF AIR (oxygen) - i.e., in the threaded joint itself. Whatever you choose to do - proceed with caution. |
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Tony Smart
From:
Harlow. Essex. England
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Posted 9 Aug 2009 2:15 pm
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In my opinion it isn't Loctite at all. Loctite doesn't go like that and it's completely the wrong application for it.
It's probably a plastised thread-lock like “Vibratite” or even a gasket sealer like “Hermatite”.
The original stuff Emmons used was a yellow colour and if it’s what I’m thinking, it’s an anti-vibration thread lock used in the aircraft industry. Can’t remember the name but I do remember in its liquid form it’s carcinogenic. |
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Russ Wever
From:
Kansas City
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Posted 9 Aug 2009 9:05 pm
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| Quote: |
| Can’t remember the name |
Tony ~
Early guitars had changer tuning
screws with a blue or red Nylok
Torque Strip and later they went
to the Nylok Spray.
~Russ |
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Richard Damron
From:
Gallatin, Tennessee, USA (deceased)
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Posted 10 Aug 2009 11:27 am
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| Good info Tony and Russ. Could very well be. One can hope. |
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Tony Smart
From:
Harlow. Essex. England
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Posted 10 Aug 2009 2:37 pm
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Russ,
Thanks for the info about early Emmons.
I've used Nylok Strip type screws - they work well.
Again, used a lot in the aircraft industry, so they've got to be good.
Regards |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 10 Aug 2009 3:17 pm
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| Looks like nail polish on there to me. In fact I think it is "Midnight Scarlet Intrigue" by Elizabeth Arden. Is there some on the tips of the pedals too? |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 11 Aug 2009 5:53 am
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I have yet to find an original Emmons p/p with the type of screw that Russ was talking about. 
Chris,
I'm kind of worried about you. I've never known a man who knew so much about nail polish!  |
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Ben Elder
From:
La Crescenta, California, USA
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Posted 11 Aug 2009 10:36 am
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I've more or less taken Donny's advice and cleaned, restrung and set it up within the congenital limitations of a mechanical incompetent.
Since it needs as much lift as can be mustered (rear legs can do another angled 3-3/4") and the B-pedal 6th string raise is not happening, nor is the 8th-string KL lower, further ministrations will be turned over to Jim Palenscar. I'll let him advise on the screw-goo situation.
I'd had one of these 20+ years ago and foolishly flipped it. I recently heard Jim offhandedly mention that the Emmons Students sounded pretty good. So I took a chance on eBay and was actually braced for more problems than this has. Very decent feel for something so light and yes, excellent sound. It may be worth the cost of moving the one KL (RKR Es->Eb) and adding as many more as this will accommodate.
Plus, I be HIP-mo-tyzed by the primary-colored nuke fretmarkers.
_________________
"Gopher, Everett?" |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 11 Aug 2009 12:31 pm
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I have had nylok strip screws in several guitars. I have a box of the removed/replaced screws. Te strip tends to fall out, probably from the introduction of oil or solvent.
If my memory is correct, I have a late 1965 that originally had the Nyloks, and a 1967. I have never had a 1968, but a 1969 I once owned had the springs over the screw shaft to maintain thread tension.
My 1964s do not have the Nyloks.
Nyloks were very expensive screws in their day. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 11 Aug 2009 12:35 pm
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Chris,
Did they come from the factory with Nyloks?
Did you buy them new that way? |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 11 Aug 2009 1:09 pm
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| Edited to be clearer: I did not buy the steels new in the mid Sixties so I do not know what was on them for adjustment screws. However, in 1999 or so Ron Lashley Sr had at the Factory replacement Nylok screws that he sold to me. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 11 Aug 2009 1:16 pm
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Thank you, Chris.
I believe originally the tuning screws came with compression springs on them.
Later on, they started using some kind of goop.
I bought this push/pull new from Ron Lashley Jr. in 2005 and it came with the red goop on the tuning screws:
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