Tuning Out Cabinet Drop... A New Way!

Dick Sexton · From: Greenville, Ohio

Ok, I know I'm on here to much. Sorry, but this is to important, not to mention in it's own thread.

If you tune out the beats by ear and get great results, if you use the Newman method and are completely satisfied with what your hearing, you use Mr. Emmons, Mr. Franklin, Mr Brisco's or B0B's method and are in tune, or your having your Uncle Bubba tune your steel for you when you play, then please ignore this.

But, If your a sometime or occasional, weekend warier like my self, who's ears are not what they used to be and you can no longer tune by ear because the ambient noise clutter wont allow it, check this out.

http://www.lozach.com/tuning.php

I was unbelieving. So I followed CrowBears instructions:

Push down on pedals A & B, Tune string 4 (E) to 440, 442 (or which ever setting you use) so that it reads "In Tune" or "Spot On" on your tuner.

Release both pedals & pick string 4.
Notice the cents difference (sharp - up 2.5 , 3, 4, 5, etc...)
Insert the difference in the box in the program on the Lozach site & click on Suite to go to the next page to obtain a tuning chart to your pedal steel.

This chart takes into account the cabinet drop of your steel, no mater how slight or great.

I did not believe this could work. So I tried it. I obtained my steels cabinet drop by bringing up my Stroboflip in the Equal Temperament mode. Then, still in that mode and just to dispel this programs usefulness, I manually input every indicated offset for every note I needed to tune. I tuned her up. I was amazed, just perfect to my ear. Every pedal move and bar placement up the neck.

So amazed in fact, I detuned my steel, tuned it up using the Stroboflips, Newman offsets, yuck. I then tuned up using the zero beat method. Good enough, but had to tweak a bit. Went back to the Lozach site chart, again perfect to my ear. That was last night.

This morning I programed the Stroboflip "T1" with my new found offsets, detuned, then retuned my steel. Again, sounds better to my ears then it has ever.

Will it work for you and "Your Steel"? I don't know, but it's free for now and worked for me, and may work for you. What would be the harm in trying it. And yes, I know it's in French!

Thank you CrowBear, I appreciate you posting the site.

CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

Thanx for giving Jean Yves's program well deserved promotion Dick
Jean Yves Lozach is quite a dedicated musician & steeler
Those of us here who know him, know he's a crack shot & we listen to him attentively

His tuning program that takes in consideration each psg's cabinet drop is not a gimmick
Jean Yves spent a lot of time & put in a lot of hard work to come up w: a worthwhile solution to this problem
Those of us here that tried it, have found it conclusive
myself as well

as you mention Dick, the folks here oughta try it & post their opinions & suggestions
Jean Yves is not a member of this forum, but he's following up on what we, steelers have to say about his tuning program
Mercy Bookoo ! Mr. Green

Bill Duncan · From: Lenoir, North Carolina, USA

If I tune my guitar in French, can I still play country with it?
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Charles Davidson · From: Phenix City Alabama, USA

Crowbear,got a problem here,Used this method to tune my MSA,then tried a couple of verses of [Le Chevalier De Paris] sounded great,then when I tried Sweet Home Alabama it was all out of tune,what gives ? DYK?BC.
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Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

All tuning methods do not work the same simply because not all guitars or players are the same. Different scales, different string guages, and differing amounts of bar pressure will require various tweaks and adjustments from time to time, and from player to player. Also, some players will tolerate beats better than others, so "ear tolerance" also enters into the equation. Realize that most any tuning method will just get you close, and may require minor adjustments when any of the above mentioned things changes.

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Leri Schiller · From: Belton, Texas

Thanks.
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David Doggett · Posted 9 Aug 2009 8:29 pm

I see a problem with this calculator. No matter how much cabinet drop you enter, it gives all that correction to the pedals-down position, and lets your open strings go sharp the entire amount of your cabinet drop. So when playing open at the nut, your A chord will be in tune with the rest of your band (assuming they are tuning straight up 440), but you E chord will be sharp to the rest of the band. If the cabinet drop you enter is 8 cents, your entire E chord will be 8 cents sharp to the band.

A more refined way of dealing with cabinet drop is to split the difference between the open position and the pedals-down position. With that method, if your cabinet drop is 8 cents, your E chord will be 4 cents sharp (Es will be referenced to 441 Hz), and your A chord will be 4 cents flat (As will be 439 Hz).

This is the reason Newman's later chart set the Es 10 cents sharp (442.5) instead of at zero cents (440). In that chart there is 16 cents difference between the Es and As. He didn't split the difference perfectly, but let the Es be 10 cents sharp, and the As 6 cents flat. That's probably a good compromise, because it is usually better to be slightly sharp than slightly flat.

Sixteen cents cabinet drop, as Newman's chart was designed for, is probably more than most modern pedal steels have. The fact that so many people can use Newman's charts (both of them), and things like this calculator, and think they all sound good, shows how uncritical these adjustments are for many players.

Jeff Valentine · From: Colorado Springs, USA

If my guitar is in tune then how will I be in tune with everyone else in the band....... Wink

David Doggett · Posted 9 Aug 2009 8:38 pm

Jeff, the great majority of top pro steelers tune by ear close to Just Intonation (similar to Newman's charts and this calculator). Do they sound out of tune to the band on the thousands of recordings they have made?

I realize you are making a joke about the rest of your band not necessarily being in tune. But if they are at least attempting to be in tune with a meter, if your instrument is in tune with itself, you will have the best chance of playing in tune with the rest of the band, unless they are way off.

Jeff Valentine · From: Colorado Springs, USA

It was a joke, Dave. I guess you can't even make a joke on this forum anymore without someone wanting to chime in and disagree with you....

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Jeff, I guess your joke fell about 2.5 cents flat...
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Jeff Valentine · From: Colorado Springs, USA

Yeah, I guess so. That was a good joke! Wait, it was a joke, right? I don't even remember saying anything about the thousands of other steelers on recordings, or any other steelers for that matter. I was just making a light-hearted joke that I figured everyone would find funny... I guess I'll hang up those dreams of being a blogging comedian.

Charles Davidson · From: Phenix City Alabama, USA

Here we go again with another GREAT TUNING DEBATE. What number is this in the last few years,There is one phrase missing in these debates[IT'S MY OPINION]this is the right way to tune a guitar,Some [not all] seem to insinuate their way is the only way[written in stone].When I started years ago,I admit it took awhile to find what was right for ME,I tried the tempered,tampered,tortured,methods,of a lot of the big guys,then one day was reading an interview of a well known road player,he was asked how he tuned,very simple,I tried it,has worked for me every since,I may NOT be in tune,but is sure sounds that way to me.[AND THAT IS JUST MY OPINION].And I DON'T need a high dollar tuner,My BOSS-TU-12 works just fine.Just tune the damn thing so it pleases YOU,Then go play and have FUN. DYK?BC.
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Hard headed, opinionated old geezer. BAMA CHARLIE. GOD BLESS AMERICA. ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVIST. SUPPORT LIVE MUSIC !

CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

Bama Charlie, could be that program don't take to rednecks ? Whoa!

or is it rednecks that don't take to the program ?

if i may, just try Jean Yves's tuning program on your steel & let us know if works for you or not

do leave your comments & suggestions

Mercy once again Winking

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

http://www.lozach.com/frenchytour.html
The Video sounds reasonable to me.
But then again I spent all my lunch money on a rack tuner and prefer to pretend that it works ok
In my Opinion Shocked

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CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

here's another one of Jean Yves clips :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=NL&hl=nl&v=ZIS_bLljUbI

Ken, i know what you mean
i done got myself a strobo rack & feel obliged to justify the expenditure(lol)

Greg Wisecup · From: Troy, Ohio

In regards to the video; Anyone who can run upstairs carrying an SD 10, I may have to listen to! Laughing

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Chuck McGill · From: An hour from Memphis and 2 from Nashville, R.I.P.

Crowbear your buddy can play. What kind of steel is
he playing? As soon as I get home I will try the tuning method and thanks to Dick for the link.

CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

you don't often see a steeler grinnin' carrying his steel up the stairs that's fo'sho'
Jean Yves is smilin' cause his case is empty !

the model is WIESNER
made in Switzerland by Mr Wiesner (RIP)
Lionel Wendling & Claude Langlois play on them as well
Schild is another Swiss made psg

check out 2 dollar blues :
http://www.lozach.com/versini1.html

Ross Shafer · From: Petaluma, California

Howdy Crowbear,

I met Schild (is his first name Peter?) back in the late '80s or early '90s when he was building custom bicycle frames. I heard he was making pedal steels several years ago, but have never been able to find any contact info for him. Any chance you know how to contact him? I may be in Zurich at the end of the month and would love to try to get together with him.

Thanks,
Ross Shafer

Roger Crawford · From: Griffin, GA USA

Dick, you say you loaded the settings into your Flip. When I plug in for 2 cents of drop, I need to tune 1st string F# open to 2.0, and 4th string with C pedal to -14.49. What setting did you plug in? I assume you rounded to the next highest 10th of a cent.

Charles Davidson · From: Phenix City Alabama, USA

Crowbear,I found what works for ME,SO I'm not messing with it,[If it ain't broke,don't try to fix it] I'm not going to try to get anybody else to do the same thing,to each his own. The point I was making,you can ask a dozen players how they tune you will get a dozen different answers,and they will argue about who is right,This came up about a year ago and two of the steel super stars were cussing each other out about the RIGHT way to tune a guitar,That's kind of like a guy that has driven a Chevy all his life,telling a friend he's a dumb-ass for buying a Ford,oh well, DYK?BC.
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David Doggett · Posted 10 Aug 2009 5:28 pm

Jeff, I actually wrote my first paragraph about your comment before I realized it was a joke - my dumb. Embarassed

Then instead of deleting it with the edit function and leaving a blank post, I figured I had to add something recognizing it as a joke and explaining myself. In other words, I found myself in a hole, and decided to address the situation by digging deeper. Rolling Eyes

My humble pardon for messing with your joke and over analyzing. Smile

I need to write less, and practice more. Confused

Dick Sexton · From: Greenville, Ohio

Roger, sorry I was slow getting back to this.

Your absolutely correct. The offset for the first string F# on my steel is 2.3 and the offset for the F# pulled up on the 4th string is -14.5..... I didn't know how to handle that either, so I tuned everything else and then tuned that pull by ear. The combination of the French Tuning Calculator and the Strobo Programming is not 100% perfect. I myself, put the offsets into T1 in the Strobo. One way of handling this unique situation might be to put the "Odd" offsets into another programmable spot like T2. I have not done that yet, what do you think of that as an option?

Thanks for the question, that's how we all learn and can work these things out. What a great community to be a part of. DS

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