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Topic: Pickups for high gain and rock steel.... |
Larry Weaver
From:
Asheville, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 5 Aug 2009 7:14 am |
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Guys, I'm hoping I can get a bit of sage advice and wisdom from some of the pickup gurus that hang out on this forum. Specifically, I need advice regarding pickup choices for more high gain rock playing.
Lately I've been using a Fractal Axe-Fx and have been liking it a lot! I'm able to dial in an amazing array of great clean tones and also great tones with some good crunch. Now the issue for me is the high gain stuff. Seems that I can't get to a spot where I can dial in a high gain patch without getting into feedback issues at stage volume. At lower volume levels in the home studio or on sessions, no problem. Plug in my Strat and do my hideous impression of 6 string playing and no problem there (besides the playing itself  ). As soon as I start to hit stage volume with the Steel though, I have to dial most of the gain out of the patches in order to avoid feedback. Seems that I always had the same problem a ways back with the Pod XT. Over the years I've built most of my own analog effects and I've tweaked and adjusted them for the steel and in the past I've also used "Matchbox" type devices that seemed to help.
Since I'm mostly using gear that was intended for 6 string, I'm starting to think that perhaps I should be looking into other pickup options instead of trying to make adjustments with outboard gear. Maybe more in the output range of what would be in say a Strat or Les Paul. I recently had Jerry Wallace wind me a single coil with a tap at 11k. I really like it for clean tone! It's bright but is still rich and warm and it cuts MUCH better through the mix. Additionally, it feedsback MUCH less than most of the other pickups I have that are in the 19k-30k(!) range. I can't help but thinking that standard PSG pickups have way too much output for what I'm looking to do.
So, thinking along those lines, have any of you guys experimented with pickups in the 5-7k range. Keeping in mind that this would NOT be for traditional steel tone, but for use with high gain type playing (my next guitar will definitely have 2 pickups! A single coil at 11k for cleans and maybe a tap to 6k or so and also a humbucker). I'm thinking of checking out the Alumitone from Lace. It looks like that is one of the bass pickups, and if so it looks like that's in the 5k-6k range.
Love to hear some ideas about what you guys think might be worth trying. Thanks!! |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 5 Aug 2009 9:14 am
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I'm no guru, but have yutzed around with a lot of pickups, either guitar or pedal steel.
Disclaimer: The pickup design influences this a lot. If you move away from the typical high-inductance, iron-load pickup as on most guitar and many pedal steel pickups, the design parameters change significantly. Lawrence is probably the prototype of this type of different thinking.
But assuming we're talking about a typical guitar or pedal steel pickup design, as one increases the number of windings, the DC resistance goes up, the high-frequency response tends to decrease, the midrange frequency peak tends to broaden, and the overall sound tends to become fatter. Contrast a stock Tele or Strat pickup with a hotter wound version. The pickup width also influences sound - wider pickups sense more of the string and, all other things being equal, tend to sound fuller.
A typical modern pedal steel pickup is wound very, very hot in comparison to a typical guitar pickup - ca 17-20K Ohms vs. 5-8K Ohms on an old-school guitar pickup. So-called high-output, high-distortion guitar pickups are wound from around 9-10K to maybe 15-16K. I think a lot of this is because a typical PSG pickup is placed so close to the bridge/changer.
Another critical issue in high-gain pickup design is noise. Tonally, my personal favorite high-gain guitar sound pickup is the Gibson P-90, but the noise is really a problem in most situations (somehow Leslie West made a go of it, though.) I had a fairly light-wound True-Tone on my Zum, but for high-gain applications, the noise was totally intolerable to me. I think the reason many pedal steel players can get away with single-coil pickups is that they always run their amp's preamp at very low gain to keep the sound distortion-free. Other things equal, lower gain means less noise. I put a Lawrence 912 humbucker on this guitar, problem gone. But it's a pretty high-output pickup. Either way, I can't tolerate high gain without a humbucker. YMMV.
When you say "feedback", what kind of feedback are you talking about? Is it that hideous shrill and uncontrollable high-frequency feedback (that I usually find emanates from loose windings in the pickup coil) or are you talking about a broader spectrum feedback (that I usually find emanates around the midrange peak of the pickup)?
If it's that hideous high-frequency FB, you could try either dipping the pickup to solidify the coil (I suggest getting a pickup winder to do this) or just getting a pickup without loose windings. To me, that kind of loose-winding microphonicity is simply a showstopper for high-gain playing.
But if it's the more controllable broad-range FB keyed on the midrange peak, I would have to identify what I don't like about it. To me, one of the big features of high-gain playing (guitar or steel) is precisely the presence of that type of feedback plus the ability to control it. To me, that means that the midrange peak must be where I want it, and then I must set the gain so that I'm on the edge of it and be able to control it with my fingers and/or volume control/pedal.
So to me, it's getting a properly wound pickup that has the basic tone that I want in that gain range, and then adjust the gain to put me near the edge. I wish there was some "scientific" algorithm for deciding what I'm going to like, but unfortunately, I don't know any way to really know except to try a pickup. Of course, it depends a lot on the amp, how I pick, what I want it to sound like, and so on. You may hate what I love, or maybe not.
I think it's a reasonable approach to try to mimic the guitar pickups that you use for this type of high-gain playing. I imagine that you would have to get something custom-wound, since most PSG pickups are very hotly wound. I'd have to have a humbucker - I would think a custom-wound Tonealigner humbucker would be a good candidate. I have a set on a Fessenden - I might like it better for old-school PSG clean if it was bit more lightly wound, but it is excellent for higher-gain applications, to my tastes. No doubt there are others, but with those, you have forum member Bob Hoffnar who can work with you. I don't have that guitar with me right now, so I can't tell you the winding DC resistance - I measured them and want to say "18.something KOhms", but can't remember for sure. But my recollection from some threads back then was that these are stock Tonealigners made when Jim Pitman was doing these - from the oxidized solder joints, it looks like it came stock on that Fessy, or at least were probably replaced some time ago.
I also happen to really like the Lawrence 9XX series, as I said earlier. They have just a bit less high-end and more midrange than the 7XX's I've tried, which translates well to higher-gain applications to my tastes.
Just one set of opinions and experience. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 5 Aug 2009 8:04 pm
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I just mounted a Lace Alumitone 6-string P90 on one of my Fenders and it punches out the BEST rock steel tone I've ever been able to get. It's also wide enough to fit a 10 string and fairly low-profile. Might be a thought.
The DC resistance is a factor with "normal" steel pickups, but toss that out the window for more "guitar-like" output - the extra poles and windings throw not only the resistance off-kilter but the configuration changes the "Q" (call Bill Lawrence for a 45-minute lecture about that...if he's tired!).
Honestly, my take is if you want a rock pickup for steel call a company...and a guy...who knows THAT sound and has made steel pickups on a custom basis - Seymour Duncan. He actually DOES talk to people, and loves this kind of stuff. And wen you talk about specific 6-string tones you are looking for or comparing things to, he'll understand because he lives in that world.
Of course, the easy way is use an impedance matcher and "dumb down" your steel pickups so they'll work right with guitar effects (MXR and Boss pedals are especially horrid sounding with steel when there's no impedance matching) - but you still have a steel pickup wound for steel tone.
Think outside the box. That's how I got on the Alumitone track before I ever knew Carter was talking to them - but they're getting a pickup made for steel,and I'm using a pickup made to be a zero-noise 6 string P90.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Ulric Utsi-Γ
hlin
From:
Sweden
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Posted 5 Aug 2009 10:30 pm
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Jim,about the Aluma 90...Your verdict convinced me,
I ordered one for my old Epi 8-string,gonna pick it
up as of today:Expectations GRANDE.McUtsi |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 5 Aug 2009 10:38 pm
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I've found George L's 10-1 (10 string) and 12-1 (12 string) to be very good pickups for driving tube distortion and auto-wah effects. They are humbuckers, and they aren't as bright and twangy as most other pedal steel pickups.
_________________
-πππ- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted 6 Aug 2009 2:11 am
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| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
| I'm no guru, but have yutzed around with a lot of pickups, either guitar or pedal steel. |
Dave,
I consider you more of a guru than a "yutzer" (i love yiddish, you KNOW what it means just by the sound of it). Im a new member and perusing thru the vast amount of past posts here daily. There is indeed a wealth of facts, opinions (yours most highly regarded), diatribes and sometimes soliloquies which go on and on till things are settled or left for future tete Γ₯ tetes, and just plain everyday FUN sometimes. I appreciate your intelligent and highly informative posts!
Last edited by Clete Ritta on 6 Aug 2009 6:00 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted 6 Aug 2009 2:34 am
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All I can say is, that Fractal FX box has been buzzin around my head (ever since I saw Greg Howe on YouTube raving about it). And I'm a big fan of his guitar tone, to say the least. I can only imagine what a great unit this is for anything, let alone a steel guitar which has so many variables to dial in. Ive been a guitarist for most of my musical career.
I dont know specifics about pickup windings, but Im slowly transcribing my ear for guitar pickups to steel. The P90 seems like a contender from previous posts here.
Guitar tones? Ive always favored the thin single, out-of-phase, and rhythm Strat and Tele sounds, but those are clean. Steel guitar is unique in that it runs a full spectrum, but often, to me, has a scooped mid sound that somehow gives it its own bandwidth to compliment guitars.
I absolutely love the sound of distorted steel guitar ala Randolph, especially with gospel or blues-rock driven motifs. Reminds me again of Duane Allman and Johnny Winter; guitar slide tones I grew up with. What pickups did they use? I dont know.
I really haven't delved into distorted steel playing much yet, though I have run most of the gamut on guitar tones. Steve Morse has been one of my musical favorites since seeing the Dixie Dregs a few times back around 81. I just got his original Ernie Ball model which has four (4) DiMarzios. 2 Humbuckers outside 2 single coils, 3 switches (a fairly complcated, yet elegant solution to 11 possible configurations).
My posit: have Dimarzio pickups been used on steels for high gain? They sure sound good in his guitars! Though they are set at a much lower height than any guitar Ive ever seen. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 6 Aug 2009 5:25 am
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Clete - this gets pretty much the full spectrum:
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Dave Zirbel
From:
Sebastopol, CA USA
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Posted 6 Aug 2009 5:30 am
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So the P-90 Alumitone will fit a 10 string as well?
dz
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Dave Zirbel-
Sierra S-10 (Built by Ross Shafer),ZB, Fender 400 guitars, various tube and SS amps |
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Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted 6 Aug 2009 5:53 am
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Jim,
A picture is worth a thousand words (and tones), to me. Nice setup! Ive read more than a few posts here concerning the lack of tone controls on most steels made these days. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 6 Aug 2009 7:59 am
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| Clete Ritta wrote: |
Jim,
A picture is worth a thousand words (and tones), to me. Nice setup! Ive read more than a few posts here concerning the lack of tone controls on most steels made these days. |
How many of them were written by Jim Sliff?
Just kidding. In all seriousness, tone controls were eliminated on most production pedal steels a few decades ago when manufacturers learned that most players either always played with them full "on" or rewired their guitars to bypass them. Most builders will add one if you want it, though. My Williams, built just 4 years ago, has a tone control on the E9th neck.
Keep in mind that a guitarist stands away from his amp, and his effects are on the floor. Making small adjustments to tone at the amp or on the floor while playing is difficult and visually distracting. In contrast, the pro steel player usually has his effects and preamp in a rack at his side, within easy reach of his right hand. He can sustain a note while he tweaks the settings right at the amp, in the same way that a guitarist adjusts his volume and tone controls as he plays.
Jim will say "It's not the same thing!", and he's right of course. There's nothing you can do at the preamp that will sound like the high frequency roll-off of a pot and cap on the guitar. It's not hard to add a tone control to a pedal steel if you really want one, though. It's just not a feature that most pedal steel players would use.
_________________
-πππ- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Larry Weaver
From:
Asheville, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 6 Aug 2009 11:40 am
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Thanks very much for the replies!!
Dave, Jim, b0b, you're precicely the guys I had hoped would post a reply.
I've definitely learned exactly how little I actually knew about pickups. Over the years I've delved into most of the cutting edge gear available at the time, and those who know me well know I've always been a tube amp freak. However, since I don't have a 6 string background, I never really paid much attention to pickups.
Last night I swapped a GeorgeL E-66 into one of my Fessys. This has never been one of my favorite pickups...actually, I never cared for it at all. Well, I fired up the Fractal Axe-FX and all the micro-phonic shrill feedback was gone, and replaced by the sweet, blooming harmonic feedback! The E-66 is WAY more compatible with the Axe than the True Tones....I'd have never guessed that. Yep, I can see where I need to start thinking way outside the box for my pickup needs!
After reading the replies here and a few other posts here and around the net, I realized that the E-66 completely encased in epoxy! It's amazing what you can find on the net IF you know what to look for. 
Thanks for the help! |
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Larry Weaver
From:
Asheville, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 6 Aug 2009 11:40 am
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Very, very cool Jim!!!
The wheels are turning over here now.....
Oh, and I still owe you one for the advice on the Holland Little Jimi. To this day, that is still the very best gear purchase I've ever made.
Cheers!
| Jim Sliff wrote: |
Clete - this gets pretty much the full spectrum:
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Dan Tyack
From:
Olympia, WA USA
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Posted 6 Aug 2009 12:52 pm
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| I have a BL 705 and a ToneAligner on my Desert Rose (it's a two pickup guitar). I like the ToneAligner in the neck position, it's close to a gibson humbucker. The 705 sounds more like a P90. They both sound great for rock and roll. |
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Dan Tyack
From:
Olympia, WA USA
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Posted 6 Aug 2009 12:55 pm
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You also might want to try one of these pedals. It does wacky things with impedence and can give you a wide variety of tones from a single pickup.
THD Quintet |
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Larry Weaver
From:
Asheville, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 7 Aug 2009 4:05 am
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Thanks for the heads-up on the THD Quintet. Looks like something really worth checking out. If something catches your attention, well, I definitely want to know about it! 
I've checked out a couple of your YouTube vids Dan, and love what you're doing with the Desert Rose. I've given Chuck a couple of calls, but so far I haven't been able to talk him into building a 12 string/Universal. Seems like a great guitar though!
If you haven't already, you should check out the Fractal unit. It' pretty amazing...I still can't believe how close it feels to a tube amp. I've set up a couple of patches that are scary close to sounding like my Univalve. I think Ed DeGenaro has been using one lately. (Never thought I'd see that happening.) I've been recording a lot with it, and since swapping out the pickup it's become a monster for live stuff. |
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