| Author |
Topic: Do you know the actual reason E9 was named E9 Chromatic |
Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
|
Posted 28 Jul 2009 12:45 pm |
|
By this I mean - do you have actual first-hand contemporaneous knowledge of the reasoning behind this particular name, and would you be willing to explain?
In particular, I would appreciate no speculation or theorizing on this thread by people who were either not there or don't really know. But I would welcome comments by anybody who really was there or really does know the answer to this. There are several past threads on this topic and two going on concurrently - please speculate and theorize there, and leave this thread open for people who have first-hand information.
I suppose it's possible that nobody regularly reading or posting on the forum actually knows. If that's the case, this thread should correctly go to the bottom after enough bumps to keep it in view - hopefully long enough so the right person(s) can see this.
Thanks. |
|
|
 |
Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
|
Posted 28 Jul 2009 1:26 pm
|
|
Lets put first things first:
Do we even know for sure who coined the phrase?
I know Buddy added non-chord-tone strings in the 9th and 10th positions before they were switched to the top, but does anyone know WHO FIRST CALLED THEM 'CHROMATIC STRINGS' or the tuning 'E9 CHROMATIC'?
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12 |
|
|
|
Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
|
Posted 28 Jul 2009 2:05 pm
|
|
Reasonable question. I believe that question is implicit in my question - I think anybody who really knows the answer based on first-hand information will know who coined the phrase. But if you know who originally coined the phrase from first-hand information but not their rationale, that would be good information.
I don't mean to be hard-nosed, but I really would like to restrict this thread to people who truly have first-hand information about the early days of pedal steel guitar. It is my sense that some of these people may prefer not to engage in such topics because - IMO - discussions like this sometimes go astray under the influence of the 'gallery'. I may even sometimes be guilty of this myself - I point no fingers. But I want to restrict the scope of this discussion to try to prevent this. |
|
|
|
Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
|
|
|
|
Paul Graupp
From:
Macon Ga USA
|
Posted 28 Jul 2009 3:19 pm
|
|
Dave: In the 1964 issue, Vol 2 of Fretts magazine by Fender, I wrote about running in Ben Keith playing steel with Farom Young. He had added an F# in the lowest string position and I wrote that it was the first time I had heard of that.
I wrote further that a second string was added to the low end and tuned to Eb (D#  )and that they were later moved to the front of the tuning to prevent string buzzing due to the difference in string guages in the low end.
I checked after that entry to see if I had given any
credit or comment on the designation of Chromatic and I cannot say now that I cared in those days what it was called or why. It just didn't seem to matter then. I think we were all too busy trying to understand the changes and how to manage them in our playing efforts.
Nor do I recall, in the years since then, ever having heard or seen anyone given credit for the term. If I had to guess I would say Tom Bradshaw based on his coining of the word Copedant (sp???). He was always the one to accurately name or label steel guitar data.
Regards, Paul
Last edited by Paul Graupp on 28 Jul 2009 6:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Gary Preston
From:
Columbus, Ohio, USA
|
Posted 28 Jul 2009 3:27 pm
|
|
I don't think Mr. Emmons does any posting on the forum but i'm sure that those that are close to him surly could ask him and i'm sure he knows for sure . Just a thought .  G.P. |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 28 Jul 2009 4:45 pm
|
|
Paul, I see that in your Pushin' Pedals 1967, Volume 1, your chart of Hal Rugg's copedent is titled "Hal Rugg E9th Chromatic". I can't see any earlier reference to the term.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
|
|
|
Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
|
Posted 28 Jul 2009 5:02 pm
|
|
Paul, did you start this??? 
_________________
A.K.A Chappy. |
|
|
|
Paul Graupp
From:
Macon Ga USA
|
Posted 28 Jul 2009 5:44 pm
|
|
Yeah, Larry, it was me !! Back in 1962 I asked Fender where the book for my newly purchased 1000 PSG was. They replied that there was no such book but perhaps I could write one.
And I replied: If I could write one, would I need one ?? 
Regards, Paul  |
|
|
|
Tom Bradshaw
From:
Walnut Creek, California, USA
|
Posted 28 Jul 2009 5:54 pm Origin of chromatic
|
|
I see that my good friend Paul Graupp mentioned me as a source of information on the association of the word "chromatic" with the E9th tuning. Sorry, but I can't help much.
When I heard the word in association with the E9th tuning, I was puzzled. Frankly, I thought maybe I didn't know what "chromatic" meant. I remember checking its meaning and immediately concluding that what people were referring to as the "E9th chromatic" was actually a misnomer, since the E9th tuning didn't have all 11 pitches (inside a scale) in its structure. I purposely avoided associating the word in any mention of the E9th. [Now just like that, someone will probably confront me with a quote of something I wrote where I did use the word in conjunction with the E9th tuning]! If I did, it was during a moment of ignorance.
The word really caught on, however, but has faded somewhat as most steel players have grown more knowledgeable of music. I can find only one chromatically tuned string (the D#) on the E9th, but maybe I still don't know what chromatic means. ...Tom
Last edited by Tom Bradshaw on 30 Jul 2009 10:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Paul Graupp
From:
Macon Ga USA
|
Posted 28 Jul 2009 6:11 pm
|
|
You see, Tom; your reputation has preceded you !! I for one can never forget terms like "Master of Touch and Tone"; "Volume Gutting" and "Quaking" and so many others, b0b would edit me if I tried to write them all here. You Da Man !! 
Regards, Paul |
|
|
|
Tom Bradshaw
From:
Walnut Creek, California, USA
|
Posted 28 Jul 2009 6:17 pm Chromatic E9th's wordsmith?
|
|
Paul: At this point who would be willing to admit that he/she coined the word, and endure the humiliation?
I apologize for not being able to post anything truly educational as requested by the author of this topic. |
|
|
|
Paul Graupp
From:
Macon Ga USA
|
Posted 28 Jul 2009 6:28 pm
|
|
I dunno but maybe Scotty will catch Jim Cohen's participation...
Regards, Paul  |
|
|
|
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
|
Posted 28 Jul 2009 6:31 pm
|
|
| b0b wrote: |
| Paul, I see that in your Pushin' Pedals 1967, Volume 1, your chart of Hal Rugg's copedent is titled "Hal Rugg E9th Chromatic". I can't see any earlier reference to the term. |
My Sho~Bud All Star Tuning Guide dates back, I believe, to 1963. That book repeatedly refers to both the "E9th chromatic tuning", as well as the earlier-used "D9th chromatic tuning".
If that's not the first print reference, you'll have to go back ealier than that.  |
|
|
|
Paul Graupp
From:
Macon Ga USA
|
Posted 28 Jul 2009 6:39 pm
|
|
Donny: Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't that one of the books Scotty wrote in collaboration with Sho-Bud ??
Regards, Paul  and |
|
|
|
Mark Durante
From:
St. Pete Beach FL
|
Posted 28 Jul 2009 6:47 pm
|
|
Seeing as though the 1962 Sho-Bud brochure has Buddie, (and Buddy) in it but no mention of the word chromatic, it would seem the year 1963 or 1964 was when the term was coined. Now who was it? Someone at Sho-Bud?
Buddy has referred to it as the diatonic tuning. |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 28 Jul 2009 7:46 pm
|
|
Until this topic came up, I always assumed it was Shot Jackson. I don't know why - maybe the first reference I saw was a package of Sho-Bud strings or the booklet that Donny mentioned. Somehow my brain has always associated "E9 Chromatic" with the Sho-Bud logo.
Getting old ... CRS.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
|
|
|
David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
|
Posted 29 Jul 2009 9:52 am
|
|
| Bump for any further real information. |
|
|
|
John McGlothlin
|
Posted 29 Jul 2009 11:51 am
|
|
| I'll delete my post if I'm out of line here but isn't the word chromatic anything like the word melodic? If so then wasn't this string arrangement done so that the pedal steel could fall inline with the type of sound that is gotten from a fiddle which again don't nobody feel offended by me bringing the 5-string banjo into to this but that instrument matches the modern day E9th tuning the closest sofar because look at where the 5th string on the banjo is located so the melodic voicings can be obtained and so like the melodic voicings of the E9th tuning therefore my guess it was named by (and its just a guess don't nobody be offended now)Jimmie Crawford,Hal Rugg and Weldon Myrick. |
|
|
|
Gary Chiappetta
From:
San Bruno, California, USA
|
Posted 29 Jul 2009 5:37 pm
|
|
A few days ago I posted to a different thread on pretty much the same subject.
Chromatic: accidental
Accidental: a note foreign to a key indicated by signature
The chromatic strings on the E9 tuning are elements of the V chord.
Genius in simplicity
I have always called the first two strings on my E9th tuning "chromatic" strings. My first guitar was a Sho-Bud PRO II I bought in 1974. The string chart (copedent) called string 1 D# and string 2 Eb. String 2 was indeed a "chromatic" string because it was a note foreign to the key of E major. Thus it was that I took it for granted that my guitar was a E9th chromatic tuning. Even my Emmons which I purchased in 1978 listed string number 2 as Eb. Once again...a REAL E9th CHROMATIC tuning.
As the years have too-quickly rolled on I noticed that everyone stopped calling string #2 Eb and just noted it as D#.
And now there is this thread in which everyone is having fun with the question of exactly where did the name "chromatic tuning" originate.
It is clear to me that the people that made pedal steels back in the last century really did understand the importance of having at least one of those two magic strings to be documented as being Eb and not D# in order to meet the definition of a "chromatic" tuning.
From Wikipedia:
"Diatonic and chromatic notes
In modern usage, the meanings of the terms diatonic note and chromatic note vary according to the meaning of the term diatonic scale. Generally – not universally – a note is understood as diatonic in a context if it belongs to the diatonic scale that is used in that context; otherwise it is chromatic."
Seems simple enough to me:
My tuning:
B D E F# G# B E G# Eb F#
A true E9th Chromatic Tuning ! |
|
|
|
Nathan Sarver
From:
Washington State, USA
|
Posted 29 Jul 2009 6:05 pm
|
|
| Gary Chiappetta wrote: |
The string chart (copedent) called string 1 D# and string 2 Eb. String 2 was indeed a "chromatic" string because it was a note foreign to the key of E major.
As the years have too-quickly rolled on I noticed that everyone stopped calling string #2 Eb and just noted it as D#. |
The NOTE Eb is not foreign to the key of E major; only notating it thus is foreign. It is the seventh degree of the major scale.
However, I think this is the sort of thing Dave M. was hoping to avoid. There is another thread discussing the possible rationale for the tuning, but Dave was hoping to have this thread dedicated exclusively to people who have first-hand knowledge of the reasons behind it.
I mean no disrespect, but I too was hoping we could get some light shed on the topic by either the people who started it or someone else in the know. |
|
|
|
Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
|
|
|
|
Stuart Legg
|
Posted 29 Jul 2009 7:08 pm
|
|
Do you know the actual reason E9 was named E9 Chromatic
Dave Mudgett
| Quote: |
| In particular, I would appreciate no speculation or theorizing on this thread by people who were either not there or don't really know. But I would welcome comments by anybody who really was there or really does know the answer to this. There are several past threads on this topic and two going on concurrently - please speculate and theorize there, and leave this thread open for people who have first-hand information. |
Dave ask that you not speculate only post the answer if you knew or bump till someone had the answer. If not you were to post your speculations on the original topic where speculation was welcomed.
I'm sure this was worded this way so as not to hijack the original topic.
I see nothing here but speculation and it should have been posted on the original topic.
I'm not asking here that these threads should be moved but rather since this in essence a hijack of the original topic it ought to a least open to speculation or anything else related as was the original topic. |
|
|
|
Tom Bradshaw
From:
Walnut Creek, California, USA
|
Posted 29 Jul 2009 8:08 pm Origin of "Chromatic Tuning"
|
|
This topic has received over 500 hits. It appears obvious that no viewer/reader thus far is able to answer the author's question. If no one had posted simply because they didn't know the answer, the total of the topic's viewers would probably be about 100. The result? This topic would be out of view (down the page) from a person who might have the answer. By providing related commentary, it has given the post's author a greater opportunity for someone who may have the answer to his question to see the question asked and answer it. I feel that restricting replies to the answer to the question will diminish the prospect of getting the answer. ...Tom
P.S.: Does one "chromatically" tuned string in a tuning, make the whole tuning chromatic? Is a major 7th tone in a chord/tuning a "chromatic" tone? Is a major 9th tone in a chord/tuning a "chromatic tone? Seems to me it is just another note of the scale of the basic chord (?). But what do I know? |
|
|
|
Stuart Legg
|
Posted 29 Jul 2009 9:11 pm
|
|
Gary Chiappetta
| Quote: |
Seems simple enough to me:
My tuning:
B D E F# G# B E G# Eb F#
A true E9th Chromatic Tuning !
|
Seems simple enough to me:
Bo’s tuning:
B D E F# G# B E G# Eb F#
A true Eb minor major11 #5 b9 Chromatic Tuning ! |
|
|
|
