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Topic: Experienced musicians now play for the Door? |
Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 26 Jul 2009 10:41 am |
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There’s a new club in my area that boasts "Live Music 7 Nights a Week"... blues, rock, country, jazz, etc. Many of the better bands in the area play there, but they play for the door. Some bands do okay... some make $20 a man!
I’m surprised to see that a lot of seasoned musicians in this area are now playing there. It doesn’t say much for the live music scene nowadays. For those of us who started playing in the 60s, 70s, and 80s, when paying gigs were plentiful in every town and every city, several nights a week, and a musician could play as much as he wanted to… today’s situation is a slap in the face.
Some would argue that the bands are getting exposure and should be thankful that they have somewhere to play. I would argue that these clubs take advantage of musicians and their love of music. What a deal the clubs are getting! Free music. And even the seasoned players who have played casinos, fairs, shows, etc. are trying to get "booked" there.
There are still a few good paying LOCAL gigs out there, but like Dylan said "things have changed".
_________________
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25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 26 Jul 2009 11:10 am
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Doesn't say much for the musicians either. Agreeing to these conditions makes it impossible for anyone else to earn a decent wage. I've heard the arguments that if I don't do it, someone else will.. I just don't buy that attitude.
Musicians should band together and refuse these arrangements. Never going to get any respect or commensurate pay just accepting whatever paltry offerings clubs throw out there. |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 26 Jul 2009 11:47 am
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| It seems to me that this is an easy fix. Minimum wage laws are being broken and authorities should be notified. Also, a good musicians pickett in front of the place would help. There are other ways also. I agree with Jerry. This is the musician's fault. Organized protest. |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 26 Jul 2009 12:05 pm
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It's true that the musicians share in the blame. Most musicians just love to play and want to be heard, and some clubs take advantage of that... with Door gigs and "open mics". Right now there are very few places to play, and a lot of musicians just want to find a stage somewhere. A new club just has to offer a stage to bands... play for the door, "live music 7 nights a week"... and the bands come running, unfortunately. It's a combination of factors... musicians out of work, crappy economy, not as many people going out to clubs, greedy club owners, etc.
_________________
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25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 26 Jul 2009 12:23 pm
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Here is a similar discussion:
Click Here
Lee |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 26 Jul 2009 12:35 pm
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What are they getting "exposed" to. People come in and know that they are playing for the door. Do they expect someone to come up and offer them a gig for more than they know they HAVE to pay them??
Oh that's right. A BIG record producer just might walk in and see them and they will be rich over night. OK I understand..... |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 26 Jul 2009 1:59 pm
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Most cities have a range of places from big concert venues that pay thousands of dollars to national acts, to medium sized clubs that pay several hundred dollars for lesser known national acts and better known regional acts, to small neighborhood clubs that pay only the door to local amateur and semi-pro groups. The worst are the rock clubs which insist on having at least three groups a night, and they all split the small door. And many of the small clubs have free jams on week nights, when there is no door, and nobody gets paid anything. The top pros, who have a known draw, and so get top pay, don't need to organize. The amateurs on the bottom playing for the door and in free jams are happy to get to play anywhere, and they will never organize. Maybe the middle level playing the medium clubs could organize, but many of them are traveling acts with little contact with each other.
I hate to be fatalistic about it, but this is just what the pecking order is. If you can draw large crowds, you can get reasonably paying gigs at the medium sized clubs, and even if you play the small clubs for the door, there will be a big crowd and a big door. If the door is small, whose fault is that?
Many small club owners are in a tough situation. They only have a couple of good nights a week to make their entire overhead. They can't guarantee big money for unknown and lesser known acts who don't bring in a crowd. So their solution is to just offer the door and let the bands' own draw determine how much they will make. The only time this really bothers me is when the club makes no effort to publicize the shows in any way. The individual bands are not in a position to put out the kind of regular effective publicity a club can.
Maybe in some small locales with one particular club that gets a good crowd and seems to be underpaying the local bands, the bands could organize and negotiate a better deal. But in large towns and cities with many clubs and many amateurs and semi-pros competing for the gigs, organizing is probably unrealistic. |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 26 Jul 2009 3:15 pm
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Some good points David. My comment re: banding together concerned musicians and bands being single minded about not accepting gigs that pay lousy rather than a literal physical organization. We already have a musicians union.
It's the mindset to play just for fun and experience and accepting no pay or nominal compensation that hurts everyone else, particularly those who rely on playing music as a primary means of income, which I'm quick to add doesn't include me.
I realize there will always be some that just don't care about those things and those that will work for nearly nothing just to get the gig. That is the segment that concerns me. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 26 Jul 2009 4:02 pm
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| Kevin Hatton wrote: |
| It seems to me that this is an easy fix. Minimum wage laws are being broken and authorities should be notified. |
The federal minimum wage for "covered employees" (those that produce goods or deal in activities involved in interstate commerce) is quite different than the law covering "tipped employees" (those that provide a service).
The federal minimum wage for covered employees just rose to $7.25 an hour a couple of days ago.
The federal minimum wage for tipped employees, however, is still stuck at $2.13 an hour. |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 26 Jul 2009 4:03 pm
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| Quote: |
| I realize there will always be some that just don't care about those things and those that will work for nearly nothing just to get the gig. That is the segment that concerns me. |
Yes, I have met some musicians like that. An amateur player once scoffed at me... "I've heard about you, Doug... you play for money". Like there is something wrong or unartistic about wanting to get paid for playing.
David, I agree with your assessment of the situation. My compliant is that good, experienced Local musicians often play for the door nowadays, when years ago they did not have to do that. There were plenty of gigs for everyone. It's the economy, the business environment, very few small clubs to play anymore. I'm glad that I starting playing in an era when there was lots of live music in small clubs everywhere.
I've been hearing the argument that "all the local bands should get together and agree not to play for less than..." ...been hearing that for 40 years. It never works. Other bands will gladly come in and take the gig for little (sometimes no) money.
_________________
My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 26 Jul 2009 4:52 pm
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| Doug Beaumier wrote: |
I've been hearing the argument that "all the local bands should get together and agree not to play for less than..." ...been hearing that for 40 years. It never works. Other bands will gladly come in and take the gig for little (sometimes no) money. |
Yes, unfortunately those are the facts. I suppose my expectations are not realistic.
I also find it unfortunate that the current state of live music is such that experienced musicians have to consider accepting such conditions. |
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Bob Ritter
From:
pacfic, wa
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Posted 26 Jul 2009 5:02 pm
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| I said for a long time whats the point? It aint worth the time and nobody cares anyway. |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 26 Jul 2009 6:52 pm
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I am in a very lucky situation; I work with one group that have 'well paid' gig's and have been established for at least 15 years. They work mostly Rodeo's, Fairs, Corporate, Opener's and large Honkytonk's some.. one night stands and others are 3 nighter's, it depends.
My other situation is a 2 peice outfit that i work in where we play smaller bars, but we also do fairs too, but on a smaller basis. Bars that cannot afford a band budget can have a Duo.
I haven't had any problem finding this kind of work, but i know in the 'bigger cities' where the population is higher, it seems almost impossible to get a gig.
There should be established bands out there that can hire a 'Good Steelie', somewhere doing all the corperate gigs.
It is very positive to play more than one instrument also. I also do Lead [ chicken picken to van halen] Nylon, and Acoustic guitars, have Dobro simulator and play Rock on guitar or slide.
I am not a 'masterclass' musician by any stretch of my own imagination, i just keep busy working.
I aim to play 'commercial chops' and have 'commercial tone' on all instruments.
That also helps with the bands, but does not help club owners book them.
Unfortunatly, you almost have to develop your own band these days, and it takes years of playing before all the 'fairs' start taking notice of you.
It's like any buisiness, you have to be out there!
I don't do 'door money' gigs.
Doug, I have a job to believe you are struggling for work at these venue's with your credentials, but if 'New England' is anything like 'Old England' i understand the trend, it has nothing to do with how good you are, it's just worldly economics and amount of players vs Venue's. 
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A.K.A Chappy. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 26 Jul 2009 7:37 pm
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OK - let me give an analogy. You are a plumber, electrician, computer jockey, whatever. You have a friend who has a backed-up toilet, is getting shocked from their reversed-polarity wiring with no ground, or has a computer whose OS has gone berserk (perhaps it came with Vista  ), but they can't afford the rate to call a union plumber or electrician, or take their computer to a high-priced repair shop. By this, I mean that they really can't afford it - a concept often lost in this society of plenty (and plenty of debt) - they just don't have the money and do not automatically go into debt to get it.
So you offer to unplug their toilet, fix their wiring, or reinstall their OS before you both sit down for a few cold ones and he or she makes dinner for you.
The question is, "Have you 'cheated' the local network of plumbing, electrical, or computer repair services by doing the repair like this?" What's your reasoning?
To deal with the "amateur" issue: Suppose instead you're really a mechanical or electrical engineer, or computer scientist - you know mechanical things, electricity, electronics, and/or computers like the back of your hand, but don't repair stuff for a living. Are you really cheating people who repair for a living to fix something for an acquaintance or friend who can't afford the "pro" repair for some type of reasonable quid pro quo they can handle? What's your reasoning? Or to bring it closer to home: Are the people who help people fix their steel guitars or amps on this forum "cheating" the steel guitar shops or amp repairman who might otherwise get the job?
A related question: If someone really can't afford a "pro" repair, how does doing their repair affect the professional service shops?
I don't think these analogies are far-fetched at all. A lot of small clubs simply can't afford a lot for music and anything they do must pay for itself on a daily basis. Often, they could make as much or more money just running a juke box or DJ who doesn't need a lot of money. From the perspective of a band or the greater community of musicians, do you really think that forcing all the more fragile places into juke-boxes or DJs is better than a pure door-deal for bands? Door-deals give a musical entrepreneur a place to try to establish a crowd, with their reward based on that. If they bring in a crowd, they get paid well. If they don't, they don't.
This is often used to "prime the pump" for a new band or an established band in a new area, and it might take a little while to see results. I personally wouldn't do this for a long time - if a critical mass doesn't develop within a reasonable time, I'd say it's time to move on. That is my value system, YMMV.
Let me also ask this: Do you really think that a club band is truly worth more than some type of monotone increasing function of how much they enrich the club in which they play? Do you really believe that such a band's pay shouldn't depend on this? Again, what's your reasoning?
I think that it's completely hopeless and senseless to think any of this can be legislated. Maybe I'm cynical, but I honestly doubt most people care enough about musicians to respond to calls for boycotting an establishment that does this kind of thing. But of course, we are free to try to establish a chain of "musician-supporting venues." Our AFM local is doing just this now, and I support that.
Back to the pro vs. amateur thing - people play music for different reasons, just like people do other enterprises for different reasons. The Mothers of Invention said, "We're Only In It For The Money," but in reality you can't force your value system on anybody. If you want to convince others of the merit of your value system, you will have to do it based on reasoning that appeals to their perceived wants and needs, not yours.
Final question - to those of you who are unhappy with pay rates and so on - is barter or quid pro quo legitimate? What's your reasoning? I would guess that organizations that take a percentage of the money changing hands wouldn't like this at all, but is it really bad for the principals if this type of arrangement helps both parties get significantly better value from the relationship?
| Quote: |
| I guess things could be worse. Like "pay to play"... where the band pays an up-front fee to the club owner for the privilege of playing at his club! If that day ever arrives, I'm retiring. |
Yup - that gets the autonomic KMA response from me. That also means me spending money to do a gig - I generally expect even a benefit to at least cover my transportation costs and a meal if it's not local.
I think this is a hugely complex problem with no easy, kneejerk, or feelgood solutions. My opinions, of course. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 26 Jul 2009 7:46 pm
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Oh, I forgot one thing. I believe that most club bands are treated as independent contractors by clubs, corporate event contractors, and so on - certainly every band I worked with back when I did this seriously. Forget about the minimum-wage argument, it doesn't apply in most situations, IMO.
Of course, this might be different for a "house band" or "house performer", but those are very rare around these parts. |
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Chip Fossa
From:
Monson, MA, USA (deceased)
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Posted 26 Jul 2009 8:04 pm
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Doug,
It's rough for ALL caliber musicians.
I was just up in NoHo last Thursday to catch Chris Hillman & Herb Pedersen; they played at the Iron Horse where seating is roughly 300 folks.
Here are 2 living legends; Chris obviously a bit more than Herb.
Me and my buddy (Aldo) got up there real early and got in at 5:30 (doors open then). Make sure we'd get good seats.
Believe it or not, that gig only drew about 3/4 full. It was great for audience members. But here are two of the living greats today, and they only pulled in 3/4 of house capacity.
My point, I guess, is that these other local clubs aren't gonna pay anything without being assured of a draw. The Iron Horse figured with 2 "legend" musicians of reknown, that they would easily fill the place up.
I certainly agree with you, in that the music/club venue today is almost non-existent (for country) as we've come to know it.
I remember the only night I COULDN'T catch you at "Billy-T's" was Monday. Back then, that was a much desirable gig at 6 nights/week.
More to the point. We and our 'following' are getting older; hate to say it. There just aren't many enthusiastic fans left, or in good-enough-shape to venture into the night; not for 5 or 6 nights; 2 if we're lucky.
BTW - Chris & Herb put on an amazing show. Two acoustic guitars with Chris switching to mandolin now and then. Two vocal mics and two mics for the instruments. Simple. Just like the old folk days. Tremendous vocals, harmony, and guit/mando playing.
They even did a great version of "Eight Miles High", with guitar & mandolin. Hillman kinda played Mcguinn's classic solo on the mando - it was uncanny. I think he was playing a Riga mandolin; beautiful tone & blonde finish, to boot. Are you getting this, Mike(Perlowin)?
Whoops - sorry for topic drifting. Can't help myself sometimes.
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Chip
Williams U-12 8X5; Keyless; Natural Blonde Laquer. |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 26 Jul 2009 8:12 pm
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Chipper, good to see you here posting again, my friend. Interesting story. Makes me feel better about having to tell someone today that I didn't think my band would necessarily draw 200 people to an upcoming show. Heck, if Hillman & Petersen can't do it, whaddaya expect from us nobodies? 
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www.JimCohen.com
www.RonstadtRevue.com
www.BeatsWalkin.com |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 26 Jul 2009 8:27 pm
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Dave, I understand what you’re saying, and I basically agree with you. I never implied that musicians who play for the door are taking work from other musicians (although others have implied that). I did say that agreements between bands to set a minimum price will not work because other bands will always come in and play for less.
I understand that the money is Not there in the small clubs today. The owners can’t pay what isn’t there. I am just lamenting the situation today, where long-time players often have to play for the door if they want to play at all. I’m thinking mostly of local players. Door deals might be okay for start-up bands and young musicians looking for experience, but most of us who have been playing for many years aren’t interested it that.
Nowadays most of my gigs are the social clubs… Elks, Moose, Eagles, French Club, ItalAm, AmLegion, VFW, etc. There are No more “night clubs” with country bands around here, with a manager, who needs to make a profit. That scene is over, and it has been for quite a few years. It’s all social clubs, town concerts, Fairs, parties. I’ve reached the age where five or six gigs a month is plenty, so that’s fine with me. I feel sorry for the young players who are starting out now.
_________________
My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 27 Jul 2009 1:12 am
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Doug, I'm with you on feeling sorry for the young players of today. I got out of the Army in early '63 and started playing full time through the late eighties. All that time there were sometimes more gigs than musicians to fill them and you could actually make a pretty good living doing it with some pretty good fringe benefits (especially in SoCal)....
In the area I live in (southeast Virginia) the are some places which pay a small fee and pass a tip jar. One place we play gives you $100 and tips which usually winds up to around $45 to $50 per man (4 piece group) Another one pays $150 plus tips which does a little better. There are a couple of clubs left around here which pay a band but I don't like the smoky bar scene much anymore so we're not booking them. The Moose Lodge circuit is still going strong with gigs (mostly on Saturday nights) paying from $300 to $400 for a band.
Since I'm retired now, I just like to pick and if it covers expenses with a little left over that's OK. The audiences seem to be getting older these days also but that's OK too as they seem to appreciate live music much more than the younger ones do, especially the kind of music we play!....JH in Va.
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Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!! |
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Chip Fossa
From:
Monson, MA, USA (deceased)
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Posted 27 Jul 2009 3:45 am
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Thanks Jimbeaux and Doug.
Been kinda laying low lately.
As we continue to grow with the forum, it gets more and more challenging to contribute 'stuff' that we haven't already discussed, and trying not to repeat ourselves (hate that when that happens).
I certainly didn't want to make anyone feel older. I'm always trying to deny it myself.
And if any two steelers can draw a crowd, it's you two guy-ohs. I know this  !
Another part of the gigless cycle we're in, is that a lot of the real old honky tonk bars have closed down (for a myriad of reasons); and 'new' ones that open up are as far from a honky tonk as the moon. Most of them ain't got country, western, or swing on their entertainment menu.
It's a rough live music scene out there, alright.
Best of luck to anyone who gets the good gig.
Just my thoughts.
_________________
Chip
Williams U-12 8X5; Keyless; Natural Blonde Laquer. |
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Theresa Galbraith
From:
Goodlettsville,Tn. USA
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Posted 27 Jul 2009 4:02 am
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| I think I'll go hear the " Time Jumpers" tonight! |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 27 Jul 2009 4:32 am
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[quote="Dave Mudgett"
So you offer to unplug their toilet, fix their wiring, or reinstall their OS before you both sit down for a few cold ones and he or she makes dinner for you.
The question is, "Have you 'cheated' the local network of plumbing, electrical, or computer repair services by doing the repair like this?" What's your reasoning?
.[/quote]
Close, but no cigar.
There are zillions of toilets, wirings and computers around. Plenty for pros and shade trees alike. Look in the phone book for plumbers/electricians and computer geeks and you will find pages and pages of them. There are gov and industrial contracts offered all over the country for this kind of work in addition to the zillions of private sector jobs doing this.
Now look in the phone book for musicians and bands......
There are VERY few gigs around anymore. When a band comes in and works for free or tips, it removes that gig from the food chain and musicians who make their living playing no longer have access to it, and the club owner who used to pay for that gig is off the hook. Surely you can see that free gigs that have taken the place of once paying gigs do not really benefit anyone except the club owner. |
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