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Topic: Why is music too loud! |
Darrell Criswell
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 19 Jul 2009 5:40 pm |
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Last night I went to the Birchmere club here in the DC area to see legendary guitarist Bill Kirchen. The band before him was so loud it was painful and I sat several places in the room, front and back. You couldn't hear the words and it was painful, Kirchen wasn't as loud but it was still way too loud.
Why does this happen? I have seen it happen all my life and it seems to happen more often than not. The music seems to lose a lot of its great properties like dynamic range, clarity, etc. Everything becomes just a blend of painful energy.
Why does this happen so often, I am mystifiied. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Darrell Criswell
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 19 Jul 2009 5:57 pm
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| It wasn't just me everybody at the table I was sitting said the same thing. |
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Rick Campbell
From:
Sneedville, TN, USA
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Posted 19 Jul 2009 7:00 pm
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This is what they make exit doors for. I used to play with a band and the motto was "if you can't play good, play loud"
I agree with what you're saying about the loud volume taking the dyanamics, etc... out of the music. I think there is a certain volume level that people want, especially for upbeat music, that makes them feel like they're part of it.
There's not much you can do about it, except learn to tolerate it, or leave. I've done both, depending on the other circumstances.
I've determined that most listeners have a different kind of appreciation for music than musicians do. The great fiddler Scotty Stoneman always said that "if you're playing to please musicians, you'll starve to death". I think that sums it up pretty well. |
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Darrell Criswell
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 19 Jul 2009 7:11 pm
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I love loud music, but not to the point where it is painful and you can hear nothing but loudness.
Maybe other people experience something else. I tolerate it if the music is very good, but it gets to the point where the music isn't good.
My question is do some people really like the loud music and want it? |
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Eldon Cangas
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 19 Jul 2009 7:18 pm Loud
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| Interesting, I like to play louder than I can sit and listen to. But then again volume doesn't necessarily equate to quality. The key is balance. Turn the amps up and you don't have to work as hard but you need to listen _ya right! Eldon |
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Jody Sanders
From:
Magnolia,Texas, R.I.P.
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Posted 19 Jul 2009 7:36 pm
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| A little warning for people who like the music loud, loud, and louder. I did a sit down job on Surfside Beach many years ago, 6 nites per week for 16 months with a Fender Strat on each side of me with their ampliers set on "kill". This includes the bass and keyboard player and myself in self defense. Due to this, I have lost all my high frequence hearing and have had to wear very expensive hearing aids to hear at all. I have a problem at times with settings on my amp eq. Not being critical, just making a statement on loud music. Jody. |
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Andy Sandoval
From:
Bakersfield, California, USA
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Posted 19 Jul 2009 7:41 pm
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| Loud is ok but there's a point when the music volume exceeds the room acoustics and all you hear is distortion. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 19 Jul 2009 7:46 pm
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| Quote: |
| Because musicians don't like to hear the audience talking while they perform. |
Y'know, b0b, I really do think that is often part of it. Also clanging bottles and glasses in a bar. It really is annoying to play below the noise floor in a club. Many bands I see react to a really quiet, attentive, and listening crowd by turning down - or conversely to a loud, yacking, drinking, and clanging crowd by turning up. There can be no real dynamics if the noise floor is 80-100 db above the threshold of hearing, and I've played plenty of places like that.
Another issue is the sound frequency distribution. A lot of (especially distorted) high-end is painful, but if that energy is channeled into lower frequencies (and kept undistorted), it's generally better. Then there's the room limit - at a certain level, the room gets acoustically overloaded and everything sounds like garbage.
| Quote: |
| My question is do some people really like the loud music and want it? |
Of course, it depends on the situation - but sometimes, I think so. Sometimes it's just "party time" - that's a big part of rock and roll. It ain't always subtle, but sometimes life ain't subtle - music and other art often reflect other aspects of life.
Anyway - I've been in bands that were simply expected to play loud. The audience attitude was "Hey, if you think it's too loud, you're too old." No problem, but heed Jody's warning and wear good earplugs if you're in that situation, either on or in front of the stage.
When in Rome. My opinions, of course. |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Andy Sandoval
From:
Bakersfield, California, USA
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Posted 19 Jul 2009 7:54 pm
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| I could never understand why the guy at the mixer panel could not hear all the distortion that everyone sitting right next to him hears. What's up with that? We've got a local theater here in town that has wonderful acoustical properties when the volume is matched to the room acoustics but playin too loud just ruins it. |
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Charles Davidson
From:
Phenix City Alabama, USA
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Posted 19 Jul 2009 8:13 pm
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Heard the MASTER Mr. Atkins live many times,Perfect, Heard him say one time,If I get TOO loud, I lose control,Wise man. DYK?BC.
_________________
Hard headed, opinionated old geezer. BAMA CHARLIE. GOD BLESS AMERICA. ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVIST. SUPPORT LIVE MUSIC ! |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 19 Jul 2009 8:26 pm
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| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
| Many bands I see react...to a loud, yacking, drinking, and clanging crowd by turning up. |
The problem there, of course, is that the yakkers then yak louder, the band turns up more, and so on till the band is too loud to enjoy their own playing, and the crowd are shouting as loud as they can directly into each other's ears and still having to repeat everything when the other person yells "WHAT???". It's insane! If the crowd are yakkers, they're GOING to yak. I think, galling though it may be, it behooves the band to grin and bear it, and resist the impulse to turn up.
Incidentally, as it happens the Birchmere (the venue in Darrell's original post) is a "listening club". The club policy, clearly stated and observed, is that patrons are expected to be quiet during the performance, so at the Birchmere the above doesn't apply! |
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Andy Greatrix
From:
Edmonton Alberta
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Posted 19 Jul 2009 8:53 pm
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If you are working in a bar, you are there to sell alcohol. If the people have to yell to hear each other, they will drink more.
The sad truth is that you are there for the owner and the patrons, not the other way around.
I played at a senior citizens home last Friday, with just me and a guitar.
I had a blast, got paid well and was warmly apprreciated.
When alcohol is out of the equation, the gig is so much better. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 19 Jul 2009 9:23 pm
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| Quote: |
| I think, galling though it may be, it behooves the band to grin and bear it, and resist the impulse to turn up. |
The complete quote discussed changing level in both directions:
| Quote: |
| Many bands I see react to a really quiet, attentive, and listening crowd by turning down - or conversely to a loud, yacking, drinking, and clanging crowd by turning up. |
I agree that turning up too much can lead to obvious problems. But I think it's reasonable that a band would react to the ambient noise level, high or low. Assuming that people want to actually hear a band, then it stands to reason that the band should be somewhat above that level, but not too much. All bets are off for a wallpaper gig, but a band playing a club gig has a vested interest in being able to be heard. Of course, if the crowd doesn't want to hear them, that's a different problem. Still, sometimes a crowd wants to hear, but also wants to make a lot of noise.
| Quote: |
| Maybe because the performers have played and listened to such loud music for so many years, their hearing is impaired and they don't realize how loud it actually is? |
Whadjasay, Jim? 
I realize the Birchmere is generally a listening club. I was discussing the general question posed. Either way - Bill Kirchen is a rockin', honkytonkin' dude - it ain't exactly chamber music or coffeehouse folk. Electric geetars allowed. |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 19 Jul 2009 9:33 pm
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The band must be in control of the "entertainment"
in the room. If the crowd gets the upper hand volume wise, they won't pay the band any mind. That
having been said, I enjoy playing listening rooms much more. I enjoy being able to hear my bandmates and exercise dynamics that are impossible when you have to go flat out.
An interesting aside, I went to see/hear a bar band once and they took all the gels out of the par lamps
to where they played under intense white light. The
bandleader explained to me that way they were guaranteed to be the focus in the room. Makes sense.
_________________
LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Fender Twin Tone Master, Session 400, Harlow Dobro, R.Q.Jones Dobro |
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Scott Shipley
From:
The Ozark Mountains
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Posted 19 Jul 2009 9:44 pm
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Several years ago I was fortunate enough to have John Hartford on one of the Bluegrass Songwriters' Nights I used to host at The Station Inn in Gnashville. There were over 200 people that night in a room that fire codes 150. John went on (unannounced) after intermission. The crowd unaware that he had started, was still in intermission mode. He started whispering "Gentle On My Mind." It took about 10 seconds for the room to get so quiet you could hear a pin drop.
Amazing. Proves you don't HAVE to be loud to be heard!
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Scott Shipley Facebook |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 19 Jul 2009 10:38 pm
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| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
| I realize the Birchmere is generally a listening club. I was discussing the general question posed. |
Me too. But it was worth mentioning, for those that didn't know the Birchmere is a listening club, that something(s) other than ambient noise would have to explain Darrell's experience, and that is relevant to his original question "Why is music too loud?"
| Quote: |
| Either way - Bill Kirchen is a rockin', honkytonkin' dude - it ain't exactly chamber music or coffeehouse folk. Electric geetars allowed. |
Darrell's complaint was primarily about the opening act, whoever they were. But anyway, for the record, I'm a big Kirchen fan and an electric geetarist of similar inclinations (if not abilities) my own self! |
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CrowBear Schmitt
From:
Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France
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Posted 19 Jul 2009 11:48 pm
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i'll go w: Jimbeaux when he mentions : " their hearing is impaired "
along w: b0b's pertinent suggestion |
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c c johnson
From:
killeen,tx usa * R.I.P.
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Posted 20 Jul 2009 3:19 am
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| Amen Charles. Jerry Byrd always said the same thing. When He and Chet ere doing there thing together they had a pact to tell each other if the other guy got too loud. cc |
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Darrell Criswell
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 20 Jul 2009 11:57 am
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It seems to me if you can't understand the words to the song because of the volume and mix then something is wrong.
Many times members of bands in the past have come to me and asked how the sound was, if the music was too loud or not loud enough, if they had the right mix. And many times I have heard the band tell the audience the sound wasn't right and apologize for it, I remember Johnny Rodiguez saying to his auidience once that he knew the sound was not good, but he was going to make sure it got fixed.
The place where I went (The Birchmere) has no ambient noise, there are signs on the tables telling you that you can't talk while the music is playing. I have heard Kirchen here before there and the sound was perfect, I think it was the opening act that really cranked up the volume (or it might have been the guy ax the mixing board, all the amplifiers were micked to the PA including the drums so it might have been the guy at the mixing board and this is a relatively small place)J, its really hard for me to understand how the band members could stand it that loud, the guitar player was great but his volume was astronomical, funny he had four or five guitars, a lap steel which he played with a guitar pick, and an effects board with about 20 devices on it. Kirchen is an exceptional performer, both a guitarist, entertainer, and a trombonist.
I have been listening to music at clubs for about 30 years and its seems things have gotten a lot worse as the electronics have gotten more sophisticated and complex. People in general did a better job when they didn't have those huge mixing boards etc. |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 20 Jul 2009 12:24 pm
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I agree Darrell that it is getting worse and has been a long steady slide. The problem with a lot of
sound companies around here is they don't know what a
MIX is. It is all bass and drums. It was frustrating to me to go to a Gene Watson concert and not even be able to hear Gene, let alone the lead
instruments.
However for most of the venues the sound people work, it is a younger crowd and the patrons know and mouth the words and don't seem to mind that all they are hearing is a roar.
What is really the pits is being in a bluegrass band and having the sound man try to get the power from
acoustic intruments that they are used to getting from a rock band. They keep trying to get sound pressure from the upright bass and it being coupled to a floor, all you get is low end feedback.
_________________
LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Fender Twin Tone Master, Session 400, Harlow Dobro, R.Q.Jones Dobro |
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Buck Reid
From:
Nashville,TN
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Posted 20 Jul 2009 3:26 pm
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I tend to agree with most everyone's comments here. I have found that if the bandleader or someone in the group would simply hand out chart(s)... that usually proves to be effective in bringing the volume down. 
_________________
www.BuckReid.com |
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Glen Derksen
From:
Alberta, Canada
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Posted 20 Jul 2009 4:53 pm
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| Buck Reid wrote: |
| I tend to agree with most everyone's comments here. I have found that if the bandleader or someone in the group would simply hand out chart(s)... that usually proves to be effective in bringing the volume down. |
Charts....does that include using (gulp!) music stands?  |
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Jim Hartley
From:
SC/TN
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Posted 20 Jul 2009 7:07 pm
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Hey Buck,
Handing out the charts will also cure alot of the overplaying won't it?
As for working with guys who play too loud, I have just about accepted that some guys get it, and some don't. A couple years ago, I got a call to work this little restaurant/lounge with a band I had never worked with. I happened to be off that night, and the place was about a drive and three iron from my house, so I said I'd do it. Anyway, it was a brutal night of sheer painful volume. At one point, when I had dropped my volume going back to a verse, the bass player yelled to me that he couldn't hear me. I yelled back "cause you're playin' too damned loud." He just laughed and carried on. They have actually called me to work a few more dates, but I have always been "busy".
Jim |
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