| Author |
Topic: Why No RELIC steels? |
Jay Ganz
From:
Out Behind The Barn
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Posted 7 Jul 2009 4:59 am |
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Relic and Road Worn Fenders are all the rage these days. So, maybe someone should offer a "new" beat up steel. 
I'm sure alot of us on the forum would buy one....right? (...oh sure!) Whadaya think? |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 7 Jul 2009 5:14 am
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When examining fashion trends in both art and artifacts, it's crucial to remember that in the (measured) Western World, half of the population has an I.Q. of 100 or less. These people need their own music, their own books, their own instruments. However, I don't think there are too many truly dimwitted pedal steel players, because this puppy will bamboozle you if you come to the party without your party hat on.
It possibly also relates to the functionality of the instrument; a guitar doesn't really have to do that much, although I've never heard of anyone with intentionally-relic'd fretwork, relic'd potentiometers, tuners dipped in saltwater... Restoring steels is often analogized to restoring old cars - you can own a classic '68 Dodge, or you can own a beater, but not much in between, you know? |
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Jerome Hawkes
From:
Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 7 Jul 2009 6:05 am
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i remember a boss of mine once saying that wearing a fake rolex was akin to stuffing a sock in your pants.
i've always related that phrase to people buying relic'd instruments 
_________________
'65 Sho-Bud D-10 Permanent • '54 Fender Dual-8 • Clinesmith T-8 • '38 Ric Bakelite • '92 Emmons D-10 Legrande II |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 7 Jul 2009 6:24 am
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Probably because stupid and gullible steelers are far less common than stupid and gullible guitar players.
Only a moron would pay extra for something that's knowingly and intentionally beat up, phoney, or fake. |
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Brian Herder
From:
Philadelphia, Pa. USA
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Posted 7 Jul 2009 6:28 am
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The "relic" six string came about by virtue of it's functionality, firstly on Fender type guitars. I "relic'd" my first one in the late 80's to try to get it to feel and play like an old guitar.. hand rolled edges with thinner lacquer, partially removed and "rubbed" into the neck. Before that, I scraped the thick poly finish off an early 70s tele fingerboard because it was sticky and almost as high as the frets. Big improvement for playability, and before long was old and dirty looking.. I didn't mind, because it now played right. The factory relic guitars came about by trying to emulate the worn look on the reissues of vintage guitars, but from what I have seen, they miss the point of making them feel like an old guitar. It is sometimes silly in my opinion, but a properly done relic on say, a copy of an old tele should be a functional detail and can look authentic.
If a steel maker reissued a classic steel (such as Clinesmith), there would be no functional reason to make it look worn, IMO.
The violin world has been doing intentionally aged instruments for years. |
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Marc Jenkins
From:
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 7 Jul 2009 6:40 am
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How about 3 cheers for the continuing open-mindedness, tolerance and understanding here on our forum!
| Donny Hinson wrote: |
Probably because stupid and gullible steelers are far less common than stupid and gullible guitar players.
Only a moron would pay extra for something that's knowingly and intentionally beat up, phoney, or fake. |
What about refinishing vintage steels so they look new? From a vintage market point of view, that would be foolish. |
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Eric Philippsen
From:
Central Florida USA
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Posted 7 Jul 2009 7:43 am
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Marc makes an interesting point.
What's the difference between refinishing a guitar to make it look like new versus relic'ing a guitar to make it look old?
Both have to do with what the owner thinks looks "better". |
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Papa Joe Pollick
From:
Swanton, Ohio
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Posted 7 Jul 2009 8:04 am
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| Maybe the relic lovers should take a hammer and grinder to thier $20,000 car..or just sell it and get one from the junk yard. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 7 Jul 2009 8:28 am
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| Marc Jenkins wrote: |
| What about refinishing vintage steels so they look new? From a vintage market point of view, that would be foolish. |
No, it's not foolish. The real fools are the ones that would pay more for a beat-up pedal steel guitar than they'd pay for a similar one in good condition. Luckily, I don't know any steelers that are that stupid.
Do you?
WELL, DO YOU?
"Condition is everything" has been the mantra of collectors of any ilk for decades.
Excepting for a very few steels, like the Bigsby's, pedal steels have no significant collector value. Even the vaunted and revered Emmons p/p sells for only 2 or 3 times it's original cost of 30-40 years ago. That doesn't even keep up with inflation. |
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Bob Bowden
From:
Vancouver, BC, Canada * R.I.P.
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Posted 7 Jul 2009 8:46 am
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| I still can't picture getting paid to do beat on a guitar with a hammer just to make it look used. |
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Jay Yuskaitis
From:
Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 7 Jul 2009 9:12 am
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| Donny, You hit the nail on the head in your first remark on this post. Jay Y. |
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Marc Jenkins
From:
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 7 Jul 2009 9:51 am
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Marc Jenkins wrote: |
| What about refinishing vintage steels so they look new? From a vintage market point of view, that would be foolish. |
No, it's not foolish. The real fools are the ones that would pay more for a beat-up pedal steel guitar than they'd pay for a similar one in good condition. Luckily, I don't know any steelers that are that stupid.
Do you?
WELL, DO YOU?
"Condition is everything" has been the mantra of collectors of any ilk for decades.
Excepting for a very few steels, like the Bigsby's, pedal steels have no significant collector value. Even the vaunted and revered Emmons p/p sells for only 2 or 3 times it's original cost of 30-40 years ago. That doesn't even keep up with inflation. |
I think the difference is that while many 6 stringers feel comfortable with an old, beat up guitar, with aging magnets and a worn neck, it seems that many steelers want their instrument to look like a hot-rod car, and outfit it with a brand-new humbucker.
FWIW, I used to work in a guitar shop with a gigantic inventory, including many Fender and Gibson custom shop instruments. The more they were beat up, the more they cost. At first, I though this was a bit silly. Later, I learned that the pickups were 'aged' on the more distressed models, and not only felt better, they sounded better. They were significantly closer in feel and tone to the many vintage guitars that came through the shop, as well. The people that bought these guitars? Mostly pro players who either didn't want to take their actual vintage guitars on the road, and found 'close-enough' replacements, or folks who had 'let one go' in the past and have found the next best thing, for a fraction of the price.
As for 'condition is everything', that's what I was getting at regarding steelers refinishing their old steels. That lessens the value as a collectible, excpet under extreme circumstances. |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 7 Jul 2009 10:21 am
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The "relic" phenomenon in the guitar world has its origin, IMO, entirely in the history of the Fender company in the 1970s. The decline in guitar (and amplifier) quality in Fender products resulting from the disastrous CBS takeover led players to seek out "pre-CBS" guitars--the term "vintage" as applied to solid-body electrics was unknown then (it would have applied to things like Lloyd Loar Gibsons from the Twenties).
I was an active guitar player during that period. When I decided to get a Stratocaster in 1974, not knowing any better I went to the music store and bought a new one--it looked and basically sounded like a Strat, and having had no experience at that point with other, older Strats, I assumed it was the same. Experience soon taught me otherwise, and a matter of months later I went looking for a pre-CBS and found a '63 Strat, which I bought without caring one way or the other if it was beat up--actually, I got it cheaper because it was beat up. It was a much better instrument in every way. So many others had similar experiences that a deep distrust of brand-new mass market instruments, and respect for older ones, which grew over time into reverence, became the norm among guitar players. Being well-worn was the immediate indicator that a guitar came from the earlier, "superior" period of manufacture. Then there are the factors others have mentioned that result from a guitar being "aged" and broken in, which players often feel improve the guitar as an instrument over its new condition.
Even as the Fender company righted itself, this mentality had taken such strong root that it has persisted to this day. And of course actual "vintage" examples are a finite supply, and the cost of acquiring one grew astronomically, so some clever soul at Fender saw an opportunity to make bucks by putting out simulations.
Gibson went through a similar process, but Fender unintentionally at first got the whole "vintage" ball rolling. A couple of years back the people who reissued Danelectros were offering "relic'd" versions! (they were using much better Masonite back in the day.)
Absurd though the "relic" phenomenon is (I agree), it does stem from the perception that was, generally speaking, true of Fender guitars at one time, namely that a worn guitar was older and thus also a better guitar.
In the world of steel, I see two differences: The process of normal use of the instrument doesn't cause wear and tear on the finish, as the hand on the neck and the arm on the body of an electric guitar does, and the stationary nature of the steel exposes it to fewer incidental "accidents", so wear is not so much an inevitable consequence of age; and there hasn't been a similar "older = better" perception in the steel world as a whole; more the reverse, at least until fairly recently. |
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Jerome Hawkes
From:
Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 7 Jul 2009 11:22 am
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one thing i always found amusing was the lack of cigarette burns on the relics, like, we can make it look like it was used in a roadhouse for 30 years, but oh, no smoking was in there. that would send the wrong message to the kids buying these roadhouse relics.
i agree with Brint - that was my experience too - except my first tele was a 73 and it was BETTER than any of the new ones of the 80's...the 70's might have been bad, but they were worse in the 80's! of course, the good thing about a fender is you can fix most of that - that same 73 tele now will whip most ANYTHING fender has put out in the last 60 years - original long throw Parsons-White bender - custom Red Rhodes wound Velvet Hammer pickups & controls, a handmade Lentz boat-neck with stainless frets - in other words, there aint much '73 left of that 73, but its right now!
you cant really do that amount of customization with a gibson, its sort of a fixed design.
also, those heavy 70's bullet truss-rod strats nobody wanted are now hip to own. i remember you could buy those all day long for $3-400 10 years ago - nobody wanted them - now they are $2-3K...same heavy "nothing great" sounding guitar with a vintage label now.
i cant wait til years from now - FS "mint relic'd strat" never played.
_________________
'65 Sho-Bud D-10 Permanent • '54 Fender Dual-8 • Clinesmith T-8 • '38 Ric Bakelite • '92 Emmons D-10 Legrande II
Last edited by Jerome Hawkes on 7 Jul 2009 12:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 7 Jul 2009 11:39 am
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The vintage guys are now at the point where a Les Paul or Telecaster with completely original wiring is worth more than a re-soldered one, even if it doesn't work anymore.... so if you have a solder join or a pickup go out on your guitar, don't fix it, because you'll kill off it's "value".  This has nothing to do with playing music anymore, it's the "Americana" branch of the antiques market. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 7 Jul 2009 12:02 pm
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I find myself in rare disagreement with Donny - his analysis is extremely oversimplified, IMO. I agree largely with Brian, Marc, and Brint on this. My take is that there are a number of aspects to the appeal of these instruments for different people:
1. The obvious (and probably overrated) "vintage looks" factor. Some people really do want a guitar that looks like a vintage guitar, pure and simple. But I think this is not the main appeal of such guitars.
2. The "vintage vibe" factor. Part of this is looks, but part of it is feel and sound. The rolled neck edges, thinner or missing finish in places on the neck, use of vintage-correct parts, pickups, and so on, all contribute to this. One point is that many of the people who like these factors vintage also like the worn-in look of a vintage guitar, but I really think the feel and sound dominate for most people I know who like these guitars.
3. A lot of guitar manufacturing is highly automated these days. The very fact that these guitars get a higher level of human attention (=> higher manufacture cost) tends to have a positive effect on a number of different variables in construction:
a. Often, the best, lightest, most resonant wood is chosen for them.
b. Especially if player/builders with interest in vintage and vintage-style instruments are part of the manufacturing process, there is likely to be more pride of authorship. I frequently find fit-and-finish better on these instruments, but not always.
4. You may chuckle, but all this stuff has strong bearing on the playability and sound of a guitar. Maybe the vintage guitar market has gone crazy the last 10-15 years, focusing far more on collectible rather than utilitarian value to a player. But the impetus for all this, in the 1970s and 80s when vintage guitars started to become a phenomenon, was the fact that vintage guitars from the "golden eras" of guitar-making were flat-out superior in almost every way to current manufacture. During the late 80s and early 90s, manufacturers like Gibson and Fender finally figured this out and corrected a lot of the glaring problems, but most players still people preferred the vintage models. These custom shop and relic instruments were intended to take this the rest of the way. Some of them are phenomenal instruments, easily comparable to a good vintage instrument. My opinion, of course, but I've owned a lot of vintage instruments and some of these reissues.
I personally would prefer a vintage-style guitar made with all the considerations that go into these relic and roadworn guitars, but with one exception: I much prefer a guitar truly made just like in the golden era, just as it rolled off the factory floor back then, but with a bit thinner nitrocellulose clearcoat. Right now, most of the standard "reissue" guitars sport a too-thick finish, to my tastes. Such a finish tends to feel plasticky, so if I have a choice, I'd prefer a little built-in wear to that.
As has already been mentioned, pedal steel players, as a group, seem to tend to prefer to refinish a perfectly good old lacquer finish because it's not shiny and new-looking enough. IMO, such people are truly coming from a completely different planet than most guitar players on this issue.
So if you think this is hopelessly stupid to the point of unintelligent, you have every right to your view of things, but you're talking about apples and beef jerky here. A guitar is not a pedal steel guitar. Playing guitar, the instrument is on your shoulder digging into your midsection, and your hand is rubbing up against the back of the neck, fingerboard, and frets every second. Every aspect of how that guitar feels is important - guitar weight, body materials and shape, neck materials and shape, all aspects of the finish, fingerboard materials and feel, frets - everything. Guitar players operate the guitar directly through their fingers and body. Pedal steel players operate the guitar through a bar and mechanism, which connect them to the physical instrument.
To argue that this approach to guitar building is BS catering to a bunch of morons is to argue that everyone should adopt your values of what's important in a guitar. This never has, and never will, convince much of anybody, IMHO.
| Quote: |
| The vintage guys are now at the point where a Les Paul or Telecaster with completely original wiring is worth more than a re-soldered one, even if it doesn't work anymore.... |
This emphatically highlights the need for such vintage-style instruments. The vintage market has, indeed, gotten pretty silly about this kind of thing, but lots of us guitar players legitimately prefer a functional vintage or vintage-style guitar. We are not morons. (I can hardly believe I even find it necessary to say this here, but on a forum that, right now, seems to be a lot of interest in Michael Jackson's private life and whether Buck Owens was a "jerk" or not, I guess I shouldn't be surprised.) |
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Steve English
From:
Baja, Arizona
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Posted 7 Jul 2009 12:30 pm
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I still relic my 501's
_________________
Always remember you're unique..... Just like everyone else |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 7 Jul 2009 2:26 pm
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Geeze, I can't believe that intelligent people fall for this type of "shysterism". It has to rate up there with the little propellers you stick in your carburetor and the magnets you stick on the fuel line to give you 50% better mileage. 
| Quote: |
| I think the difference is that while many 6 stringers feel comfortable with an old, beat up guitar, with aging magnets and a worn neck, it seems that many steelers want their instrument to look like a hot-rod car, and outfit it with a brand-new humbucker. |
We're not talking only about edge radius jobs on the necks, or mere removal of the lacquer from the fingerboard and back of the neck. (Those things do help a guitar feel better to some players). What we're talking about is dented, worn bodies, scratched pickguards, tarnished/worn chrome, chipped and ugly finishes, scarred or dented pickup housings, and cracked headstocks. We're talking about paying a premium for those things!!! If it weren't so nefarious, I'd call it marketing genius. But as it is, It's just one more example of big business taking advantage of the consumer.
No, this was merely a revenue generation scheme, one that's right up there with those perpetrated on Wall Street.
Now imagine working in a factory, supposedly taking pride in your work, and here comes the big cheese. "Scratched pickguards, eh? Put them on the relic line". "Bodies with chipped finishes? Put 'em on the relic line." "Poor chrome job on the bridge or tuners? Put 'em on the relic line!" Yes, so they take all their damaged parts and put them on the same guitar, add a little sanding and "chain slap", and presto! A "relic" guitar, that brings a substantial premium over a perfect one.
Actually, a similar thing took place in the appliance manufacturing world about 40 years ago. Refrigerators and freezers had a tough time making it from the factory to the store undamaged. A small scratch or dent in a door usually demanded a hefty price reduction for the product. Then, one wise marketing/manufacturing genius came up with the now-famous idea.
"We'll texture the doors so the small scratches and dents won't show!"
(Doubting Thomas guy) "But people like shiny, glass-smooth doors? They want them to sparkle like a new car."
"We'll tell 'em we made it that way just for them, so fingerprints won't show".
And, believe it or not...99% of the public fell for that explanation. The manufacturer reaped a huge financial gain - and never passed any of it on to the consumer or the employees. (American) business as usual.
But, back to the "relics" - I suppose there's nothing wrong with people throwing their money away on this sort of crap. What really amazes me are the people who encourage them. 
"No $#!% man! Relic guitars (and black steels) ALWAYS sound better." 
Think I'll buy a banjo. |
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Marc Jenkins
From:
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 7 Jul 2009 3:24 pm
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| Donny, I assume you KNOW that Fender charges only slightly more for a relic'd guitar than their 'closet classic'? |
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 7 Jul 2009 3:50 pm
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My freind saye's; A Green LDG will make me sound like LLoyd
_________________
A.K.A Chappy. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 7 Jul 2009 5:15 pm
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| Quote: |
| (Doubting Thomas guy) "But people like shiny, glass-smooth doors? They want them to sparkle like a new car." |
I think that's a bad premise, applied to anything, not just appliances, guitars, steels guitars, or cars. Some people like things sparkly and shiny, some people like them flat, some people like them textured, some people like them beat up, some people like them "industrial-looking", or whatever. I don't think it matters one iota, nor does it imply anything about intelligence, which is where this conversation was going for a while. One can buy any of these things with any of those characteristics, and many more. This has nothing to do with "shysterism".
People and companies build products for markets which are more diverse than ever. In this modern instant-information age, it is not credible that people are clueless about what their options are. How these markets evolve in terms of who - producers or consumers - influences what is a complex game-theoretic issue, but there's no doubt in my mind that if groups of consumers get together and demonstrate demand and willingness to pay for certain products, someone will supply them. This goes to practically anything, legal or illegal.
Large groups of people have diverse interests and value systems with respect to anything you want to mention. Nothing anybody can say will ever change this - it's been tried over and over throughout the course of history with always the same result - abject failure and often much worse as zealots try to enforce their point of view. IMHO, it's complete folly to waste any breath in defense of that point of view.
My opinions, of course. |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 7 Jul 2009 5:47 pm
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| I NEVER put relish on my steel. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 7 Jul 2009 6:11 pm
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| Thank you Kevin - this needed that. |
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Charles Davidson
From:
Phenix City Alabama, USA
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Posted 7 Jul 2009 8:33 pm
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Does all those bar dings on an old LDG make it worth more,or do they make it play better ? DYK?BC.
_________________
Hard headed, opinionated old geezer. BAMA CHARLIE. GOD BLESS AMERICA. ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVIST. SUPPORT LIVE MUSIC ! |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 7 Jul 2009 10:01 pm
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Can you imagine retooling a factory to make a complete and exact reissue of a '57 Chevy. Then right after it comes off the assembly line, pay a bunch of guys to beat it up to look like a junker.
Oh, the humanity!  |
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