Do You Temper Tune Your Lap Steel?

Doug Beaumier · From: Northampton, MA

On C6 lap steel I used to tune the roots to 440 and then flat the 3rds and the 6th slightly, by ear. Lately I've been using the C6 temperament presets in the Peterson Stroboflip tuner (the first chart shown below). Those settings also flat the 3rds and the 6th, but quite a bit more than I used to (note that the root is 9.8 cents sharp).

The "straight bar" majors, minors, and 6th chords are in glorious tune! ...but the 3-string split slants seem harder to play. The 3rd string (A) is -15.7 relative to the root, so a split slant with the rounded nose of the bar on strings 2 & 3 takes a bit of work to play in tune. Do you temper tune your lap steel? Do you tune by ear or use a tuner? Do you tune all strings to 440?

Mike Neer · From: NJ

Doug, I tune by ear, but also use a tuner--my ear of course has the final say. I usually always start with the E and work from there, regardless of the tonal center. With C6, I've noticed that I tend to pull the E strings a little flatter. I just never really got that involved in all the discussions on ET vs JI. I realize I sound slightly out of tune at times, but frankly, it doesn't bother me all that much. I don't know, maybe it should....
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Doug Beaumier · From: Northampton, MA

Kelvin Monaghan · From: Victoria, Australia

You certainly need those beats in the 3rds by droping the E a few cents 523 for your C or 440 for the A .Thats the Piano Tuner in me but its best to do by ear first the ear will tell better than a tuner all guitars respond differently.Cheers Kelvin

Ron Randall · From: Dallas, Texas, USA

Yes

I use the intervals from the Just Intonation scale.

c c johnson · From: killeen,tx usa * R.I.P.

440 all the way. cc

Andy Volk · From: Boston, MA

I've always tuned 440 and then adjusted by ear. Frankly, all these years of heated arguments on the forum over Just vs ET intonation have gone a bit over my head. Maybe I just don't have a good enough ear but I've never really had a problem tuning the instrument. My ear does have good days and bad so I do use a tuner but never, ever got into flatting a string to a prescribed mathematical standard. Maybe I should! I have a Boss TU-12H chromatic tuner.

George Piburn · From: The Land of Enchantment New Mexico

Robert Tripp · From: Mesa, Arizona, USA

I am still learning the intricacies of my little lap steel and working on intonation. So I just tune to my yamaha keyboard by ear. I say though that when I change strings, and start to do a fresh retune on the lap, it can take several minutes and then minor adjusting for awhile until I'm satisfied.

I can also state for a fact that by the time I'm done tuning this thing, that my wife has developed quite a temper. Very Happy

sorry couldn't resist.
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Blake Hawkins · From: Florida

I start by tuning everything straight up to 440.
Then I go back and play each string against the root note, making adjustments by ear.
Usually, I take the thirds a bit flat.
Then I play the triads and finally the full tuning.

Doug Beaumier · From: Northampton, MA

I agree that there is some variation for different instruments.

All I can say for sure is... when I temper tune my lap steel using the Peterson C6 chart I am in perfect tune WITH THE TRACK when recording... I'm in tune with the other instruments. But if I tune all strings to 440 (00.0) some of my chords (and two string harmonies) are slightly Out of tune with the track. There is a noticeable difference. At 440 I often have to record several takes to get something that sounds in tune to me. With tempered tuning nearly every take sounds perfectly in tune, no problem. Maybe the steel guitar temperament issue is more critical when playing with other instruments as opposed to playing alone? Question

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Doug Freeman · From: Los Angeles, CA

The only tuning I've really worked with so far is the six-string version of C6 discussed here. I tune the low C to whatever source I'm working with: tuner, existing recorded track, live piano, etc. I then tune the G to have no beats relative to the low C. The 5th being a perfect interval, I don't see (or hear) any reason to temper it. I then tune the low E string to make the triad of those three strings pleasing to my ear -- which means tempering most of the beats out of the major 3rd. Checking it with the tuner, the E string reads consistently flat (three "dots" on a Korg chromatic tuner, however many cents that is). I then tune the A string harmonically with the E to a perfect 5th (12th fret harmonic on the E, 5th fret harmonic on the A, an octave with no beats). After that I simply tune the high C string to a perfect octave with the low C, and the high E a perfect octave above the low E. So I'm doing everything by ear other than the original reference tone for the low C. This method has worked perfectly with every lap steel I've had, which have mostly been 22.5" scale necks.

All of a sudden, though, I'm noticing on my Magnatone G-65, which is longer scale, that the 12th fret plays a bit sharp on the low C string, requiring me to make a little reverse slant correction on it. Have played around with the bridge somewhat, giving it a black slant to compensate for string thickness, but haven't quite dialed it in yet. I know the consensus is basically that a steel bridge doesn't need to be compensated because the strings aren't being pressed down to the fretboard, but I'm not totally convinced of that yet. Something tells me the inherent differences in string thickness might require some compensation, fretted or not. Or, maybe this is just a bum string or the fretboard is a little misplaced.

Doug Beaumier · From: Northampton, MA

Twayn Williams · From: Portland, OR

I tune straight up with a tuner. I'm a proponent of ET though. I find I make subtle bar adjustments to sound in tune with whoever I'm playing with. I also use healthy doses of vibrato, just like a string player Mr. Green

IMHO, if you don't sound in tune with the rest of the band (and they are in tune) it doesn't matter what your 3rds and 6ths sound like by themselves.
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David Doggett · Posted 1 Jul 2009 12:12 pm

There are several related issues being brought up here. To begin with, you can get by in the guitar and steel world misnaming Just Intonation as temper tuning. But in the world of music, tuning everything straight up 440 to a meter is temper tuning. It’s Equal Temper (ET), to be precise. There are a number of other tempering systems, such as Mean Tone and Well Temper. When you flatten 3rds and 6ths, etc., by ear to tune the beats out, that’s Just Intonation (JI), and if done correctly is without any temper. Anything that varies from the pure harmony of JI is some kind of temper tuning.

If you are going to tune JI by ear (which is how Jerry Byrd and most steelers have traditionally tuned), the question arises as to what your reference pitch should be. It mostly only matters when playing open at the nut, where your ear and hand cannot fine tune your pitch. If you tune the root (C on C6) straight up 440 (or 0 cents) with a meter or keyboard, your thirds and 6ths will be quite flat to other instruments and tracks. But if you tune the 3rd or 6th straight up, then the root will be sharp. The obvious compromise is to split the difference, which is what the Peterson preset appears to do. If it were me, I’d center it a little better, say roots +7 cents and 3rds -7. But the roots tend to be more important than anything else. So if the root sounds too sharp when playing open at the nut with other instruments (basses generally tune everything straight up and tend to be the reference for the whole group), try roots at +5 or +4, and 3rds at -9 or -10. A rule of thumb is that anything within 5 cents of the target is acceptable playing on the fly, although if you stop and listen closely you can hear that difference. Technically 6ths should be 16 cents below the root, but tuning them -14 cents like the 3rds is passable. Likewise, pure 5ths are 2 cents above the root, but that is a negligible difference unless you stop and count beats. A simple and easy to remember system is to tune roots and 5ths to whatever reference you choose (+5 cents for my suggestion of splitting the difference), and 3rds and 6ths 14 cents below the root.

Fretboards are supposed to be calculated exactly to Equal Temper, all frets straight up. I have never heard of adjusting fret markers any other way, although some fret boards are off by accident. This is so you can play all keys over the appropriate frets. If you shift the frets toward JI or any other temper for a particular key, they will be off for other keys.

The different gauges of strings react differently to bar pressure. So even on steel, the lowest string or two will tend to go sharp. This may be more noticeable on longer necks, but might be compensated with thicker gauge low strings to bring the tension up on those strings. Another way to deal with that is to first tune the strings open at the nut, then place the bar (with typical bar pressure) toward the middle of the playing area, say the 8th fret. Then fine tune the strings there, using the middle or high root as the reference. Your low strings may end up being a little flat at the nut, but will play better in tune everywhere else.

Hope this helps without getting too complicated or controversial. Smile

David Doggett · Posted 1 Jul 2009 12:21 pm

Just saw Twayne's comments. If you tune JI, your ear should automatically center chords over the fret so the 3rds don't sound too out of tune with other instruments - you will be splitting the difference automatically by ear. Does Jerry Byrd or any of the other top pros sound out of tune with other instruments? The vast majority of all steel recordings you have ever heard were a JI tuned steel playing well in tune with other instruments. It is a myth that you have to tune ET to play in tune with other instruments. Vibrato helps, no matter which way you choose to tune - it works both ways.

Having said all that, there may be some tunings, such as Levitt (not sure, just saying) that work better tuned closer to ET, or maybe somewhere in between. There is a place for ET, and a place for JI, and for in-between tunings (sometimes called "tampered" tuning). Also, Mean Tone may solve some problems.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

For quick tuneups with a tuner, I tune roots and 5ths to +5 cents, 3rds and 6ths to -5 cents, b7ths to +10 cents and 9ths to 0. In other words, I tune to the notches on the electronic tuner.

In a quiet recording situation, I tune the roots to +5 cents and then tune the rest of the guitar by ear to the harmonics.
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Doug Freeman · From: Los Angeles, CA

David Doggett · Posted 1 Jul 2009 12:56 pm

My fast and dirty is roots and 5ths to my reference (441 Hz or +4 cents), 3rds and 6ths 12 cents below that (438 Hz or - 8 cents), everything else the same as the root. Those decimal places on the Peterson are redunculous. Confused

Doug Freeman · From: Los Angeles, CA

Kay Das · From: Los Angeles CA

I actually enjoy a little bit (not a lot) of occasional discord/dissonance in the lead (steel/vocal). Just makes the performance a bit more human and being less than perfect, which I find interesting. For rhythm, however, things have to be in tune for me.

Charley Wilder · From: Dover, New Hampshire, USA

I play almost exclusively in "G" (six strings). I always tune the roots to the tuner.Then I tune the fifths next and thirds last by ear and finish by touching up the whole shebang by ear. In days gone by we used to call it tuning to the instrument. I could easily get along with just a tuning fork but I also own a mandolin! Laughing

Doug Beaumier · From: Northampton, MA

Thanks for the great replies David, b0b, and others. There's a lot to digest here, and I think I'll do that little by little!

One of the reasons I started this post is because I'm curious about the JI/ET issue as applied to LAP STEEL vs. Pedal Steel. I've been tuning JI on pedal steel for over 30 years, and I always assumed that the large body and the mechanisms of a pedal steel had a lot to do with the tuning issues and the need to tune JI (in my opinion). I also assumed that a lap steel could simply be tuned straight up 440 and sound fine, but recent recording projects on lap steel have shown me otherwise... again, my opinion.
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David Doggett · Posted 1 Jul 2009 6:23 pm

When I play Dobro, I tune just like you, Charley. Electric steels have more sustain and harmonics, and so small tuning issues are more prominent. Many acoustic instruments, such as acoustic guitar, harp and pianos, that tune ET, have less sustain. So the beating harmonics die of and are not so objectionable. Electric steels, especially with a volume pedal, sustain the beating harmonics of ET mercilessly.

Electric guitars have the same problem, but you have to tune fairly close to ET to be able to use all the available fingered chords. But the problem can be tough with distortion sustain. With distortion, players tend to use a lot of single string work, or power chords, which leave out the problem 3rd. Also, open tunings, which can be tuned JI, are popular with heavy distortion users.

Don Kona Woods · From: Hawaiian Kama'aina

Here is the way that I do it

Note / Cent Offset

E +00.0
C +14.0
A -02.0
G +16.0
E +00.0
C +14.0

Aloha, Smile

Don

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