Sound

Anders Brundell · From: Falun, Sweden

Hi fellow pickers!

I'm thinking about getting me a brand new steel and this time the sound is crucial. I especially love that Emmons pp growl that sounds a bit like a built-in chorus.
So could someone please tell me how J D Maness, Sonny Garrish and Cowboy Eddie Long get their sound?

I currently play a Sierra single 14 universal* (copedant at http://s127.photobucket.com/albums/p141/steel_picker/?action=view&current=E9C6S14Ucoped0902.jpg ) but my next guitar might very well be a 12 string extended E9 instead. I've never played more than homeopathic amounts of C6 anyway.

I think BMI makes a hybride single 12 and Zum does as well, and they probably have some built-in good old pp growl.

Audible cabinet drop is also important - or rather the absence of it - so it got to be a well built guitar.

Now; what do you recommend, folks? I look forward to all advices.
My old Sierra is packed with brilliant technical solutions but has a snotty sound and poor sustain so I don't think I'll get me another Sierra this time.

*Sound samples at http://www.countryneers.com/musik_eng.htm I play on all mp3:s and some of the video clips listed there, but I'm no longer with that band.

Olli Haavisto · From: Jarvenpaa,Finland

Hi Anders,

To make your list a bit shorter, I think the Zum Hybrid changer is only available as a 10 string.
For a new push pull, check out the Promat. He makes 12-strings.

Tjenare,
Olli
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Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

You shouldn't write off the WBS you queried about on the ESGF just yet Smile

Why not check it out in person first, so you know what it sounds like when you're playing it?

I've planned to visit Wolfgang in a months time, for a sound-check and discussions about details. If I'm happy with an Ultimate I'll order one. The other steels on my list are still around if an Ultimate won't cut it.

One of the advantages with WBS is of course that those steels are made, and serviced, nearer to us in Scandinavia. I generally find it easier to deal with European manufacturers when going into details. German quality and eye for same details, don't hurt either.

Anders Brundell · From: Falun, Sweden

I would love to check out in person, but the problem is that I live some 4 - 12 hrs by jet plane from the nearest dealer. No guitar is ruled out yet, but I guess that a hybrid pp sounds best to me because I love the old Emmons pp sound. However there's still a year 'til the piggy bank is ready for slaughter so there's plenty of time for probing and thinking, and that's what I'm doing right now.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

I learned a long time ago that if I want a guitar to sound like a push-pull there's only one solution: GET A PUSH-PULL.

There are push-pull 12 strings out there (obviously, no 14s) and they are not that expensive. Mine cost me about $1000US in 2000, with 3 and 5 and I added pedals and levers to it.

Good luck, Anders

Here's a soundbyte of mine
http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/MyFavThings.mp3
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My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Anders: if the lack of "bite" and sustain I could hear on those sound clips is your instrument's natural sound, I can well understand that you're not too happy with it.

However, how much your steel gets "muted" through the sound chain, is impossible to hear in those recordings. Have you tried various electronics, like matching pre-amps to get the right pickup loading, and tested out more lively steel amplifiers/speakers on it?

The choice of pickup matters a lot also, but I guess you have thought of that. Probably not too many 14 string pickups available for you to test out either.

I'm not gonna ask if the strings can vibrate freely, no dust, oil or soft metal muting the string on the bridge/changer. I only mention it because some steels are "totally dead" because of such factors, and especially soft metal issues are difficult to do anything about if you ain't got qualified steel building/repair people near by.

Don't know what the bridge/changer looks like and how it is built up either, but with 14 strings it has to take a heavy load so it is probably more solid than on regular 10 and 12 strings.

While testing out various ways to modify the inherent sound in my own all-pull Dekley, emulating the sound of an Emmons pp wasn't a problem. Two quarter-inch tuned rods running almost the entire length of the steel and pushing against the bridge/changer supports with a defined force, were enough to get an Emmons pp like sound and picking-response.
Sounded nice - deeper and more accoustic with some of that growl you're asking for, and improved sustain and counteracted body-drop. Were also quite easy to adjust the "twang" and "growl" from the Dekley's original sound into and beyond that Emmons sound by tuning and dampening those rods at various points and change end-to-end pressure.

Just goes to show how easy it can be to modify at least some steel guitars' inherent sound, if one is into accoustics of "electrified" string instruments and can manufacture and/or modify essential parts.

I wanted a more neutral steel sound - focusing more on the high end, so I dropped those rods and modified/replaced the entire top/neck/bridge/changer section for a stiffer and rounder sound with even better sustain and less body-drop. Such a project is too much for most steelers, as it literally meant I built a new steel based on an old frame and mechanics. Certainly did cost less than buying a new one though.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

A Dekley that sounds like a push-pull, huh?
Georg, I'd love to hear some examples of the sound of that guitar in 'push-pull mode'. I've heard a lot of Dekley guitars but none that sounded remotely like a push-pull.

Do you have recordings you can share with us? Not everyone hears subtle high mids and midrange the same.
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My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Larry: no, I don't have any recordings from that "sound testing" era - it was back in 1988 - 92. I haven't made any recordings of my steel myself, and the only one I know of were made by/for a local radio station back in the early -90's - backing up a local artist in a contest IIRC. I doubt if that recording still exists, but I don't really know.

I will put some sound clips of my more normal sounding but heavily converted 'Dekley GS' on the web, once I have managed to get the right recording equimpent together of old and new items. Also need to practice old skills a bit, so I don't sound like a complete novice.

In the mean time: I've put one page on my site -, here - with a little info about the instrument, and me, and the state we are in right now.

I wouldn't say my Dekley sounded like a push-pull, because I don't think it is the push-pull mechanism in itself that makes that sound. It is the way the strings resonate to the body and back via that particular type of changer that makes the sound, and that can IMO be replicated in many all-pull steels by emulating the resonator-link. I accidentally did that by testing out rods for balancing out body-drop, and found that I could tune those rods for a whole range of accoustic effects that resonated back and forth between the strings and the body.

Having read some recent patent applications for the ZumSteel, it looks like others have had similar ideas about how to control resonances in a steel. The approach/method seem very different from mine though, and my "resonating rods" aren't patented.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Jaydee Maness uses Tonealigner pickups in an Emmons push-pull. That's the tone to die for, IMHO. The Tonealigners allow him to set the volume of each string independently to get a perfect balance.
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David Doggett · Posted 26 Jun 2009 11:20 am

Georg, if one end of your steel rods pushed against the changer block, where was the other end attached?

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

I would get the "Lion Model" by Exotic Steel Guitars.

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

David, I attached a piece of solid aluminum between front and back side of the aluminum frame, just to the left of the leftmost pedal mechanics. Snug fit, so I screwed the piece to front-frame only, to the lengthwise profile used for adjust screws for pedals.

This aluminum piece was around half an inch thick and 4 inch in depth, with two 3 inch deep holes for snug fit of the rods with screws at the end so I could adjust the lengthwise pressure.

The rods right end pushed against the aluminum pieces holding the bridge/changer-top and stop-plate with return-springs together on either side, in the old Dekley construction. The original bridge/changer construction were screwed tightly to the relatively thin wood/mica top plate, with no other support. Ideal for such experiments, but not very stable when it came to detuning.

To keep the rods in place against those changer support-blocks, I drilled 3 shallow holes/indentations at different height in the blocks, and pointed the rod-ends. This meant I could loosen the screws at the left end of the rods, place the right tip of the rods in another indentation in the changer support-blocks and retighten the screws. This way I could adjust how close to the top of the changer the pressure from the rods were applied.

These long rods would bend slightly - act like springs, if I tightened them sufficiently from the left end. I could then adjust dampening and/or stiffness by cross bracing them at different places along their entire length, going above or below the pull rods.

The effect on sound were amazing, as I could tune these rods to give the instrument inherent reverb with different strengths at various frequency ranges. When i dampened them correctly, the typical Emmons pp sound dominated - just a little "accoustics" with nice, fat, growling lows with just the right amount of "boom".

Just to mention it: I can't put those "tunable accoustic rods" back in now, as there are no aluminum pieces holding the changer together in the present construction.

Bent Romnes · From: London,Ontario, Canada

Anders, have you considered the Fulawka? The buzzword is : Fulawka sounds like a Sho-Bud on steroids. Sure, it's just a buzzword but many people have praised their unique sound. They are made by Ed Fulawka who has been building them, essentially the same, for 57 years or so. There are 40 year old Fulawkas out there, playing as we speak.
Well, at least one of your fellow pickers in Sweden have one so you might have tried it.

I just got off the phone with Ed and he is currently working on 2 guitars.
He told me he had shipped one to Japan in May ..a double that he had put 9 pedals and 10 knee levers on.

Quite a long wait for one...the sooner you get your order in, the sooner you will have one.
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Anders Brundell · From: Falun, Sweden

Thanks a lot for all replies!
I still prefer a universal 14 for its potential for dive bomber solo work on strings 10-14 but in case they are not available as hybrids or all pull with a seducingly similar tone then I'm in for a 12 string hybrid or an Emmons pp. The sound is crucial but a modern construction is also tempting in case it can match a real Emmons pp soundwise.

I can neither find Promat nor Exotic on the web. Does someone know their web addresses?

Bant: A friend of mine now owns Ricky Davis' Blue Darlin' Fulawka, and it sounds quite good but not Emmonsy chorusy, so to say (excuse my home made swenglish! This is a Korean pc with a confused Swede behind the keys.)so that sound is not that tempting.

b0b: Does Tonealigner sound even better than a TrueTone single coil? I love the bright and chrystal clear Stratocaster twang if you know what I mean. My old Sierra got a considerably better sound when I changed from the original 3 position humbucker to a custom wired TrueTone - the very first 14 that Jerry Wallace ever made, BTW.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Anders Brundell · From: Falun, Sweden

Right - J D's tone is really absolutely great. I would say that Sonny Garrish and also Cowboy Eddie Long sounds extremely good too, so I would like to know how they get their tone if someone knows. I've mailed Eddie via MySpace but haven't gotten any reply yet so I guess he's pretty busy.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

I'm on the same track as Georg.

Is it the recorded sound that you're not happy with?

It's awfully difficult to assess your own steel tone in a live situation, as you can't walk out front playing it like a six-stringer to hear what's coming out of the amp - you're usually next to or in front of it, but at single position that isn't enough to analyze tone - and another player playing your steel probably won't sound the same dues to attack or picking position variations, which make subtle differences. However, you CAN get a general idea.

From the recording, though, IMO the engineer and/or producer sucked the life out of your tone AND attack. There's NO attack, actually. It sounds like one of two things is happening - either the track was processed through an over-used limited, killing the front end (with no extended release time via compression for sustain - more in a sec...) or you are over-using your volume control and pumping it something fierce - picking when it's almost off (instead of slightly backed off) and backing off of it far too soon AND all the way.

I don't think that's the case, though - but you can figure that out in 10 minutes...it might take a long time to correct, but you'll recognize it.

But I have had several instances where somebody behind the glass has cranked up a limiter to reduce attack/bite, but also left the release control in a very low setting - so I ended up with a "mushy" sound (or, for some reason some of my musical cohorts and I have come to call it "marshmallow sound"). You end up with no real strong beginning for a phrase or even single note, and no cutoff point - it just wallows away in quicksand way too soon.

This stuff also murders your actual tone, and your guitar sounds clinical, yet distant and detached. And if by chance you are using a stompbox compressor - don't! They are notorious for wrecking guitar tone (and are not the same at all as a classic RCA tube compressor, a Manley, or other studio unit). But, as noted, even the big-boy units can be used wrong, and I'm hearing a whole mix that's over-processed, leading me to at least the recorded tone being "false" - altered badly via recording techniques. Stompbox compressors are an **effect** to be used selectively, not as a crutch for right-hand control problems or a badly-sustaining instrument.

Back to the volume control - if you think that's why the soft start and finish to everything is present - unhook the thing and play without it, relying just on your touch and bar vibrato for attack and sustain, respectively. It *may* make a huge difference in your tone.

Just some ideas - in reality the only thing I've heard that sounds like a pus-pull is a push-pull, although if the Promats are "all that" and nothing else works you might consider one (since PP prices have skyrocketed.)
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1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
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Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
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Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Push-pull 12 string prices have NOT skyrocketed. The only thing that has really skyrocketed (at least b4 the recent economic crunch) are the wraparound and bolt-on D-10s from the early days (64-66). When you can find them, S-12 and D-12 Emmons guitars (they are all cut-tail push-pulls -- never built LeGrande 12's) are usually pretty reasonable.

I would suspect that one could buy an old Emmons S-12 much less expensively than a new Promat 12 string (if Mr. Papic even makes them -- I've never heard of one).
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

Ernest Cawby · From: Lake City, Florida, USA, R.I.P.

I think Johny Cox has a D12 for sale, and Micky Adams if not sold.

ernie

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

I have 12 string PSGs with Alumatone, Tonealigner, and TT
Hands down the True Tone Has the Best Tone.
Tonealigner 2nd and the Alumitone is the coolest looking.
I do not have issues with hum but only run one effect.
Listen to Steel Guitar Rag with True Tones
Mind your own Business Video is Alumatone
http://www.myspace.com/metcalfken
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David Doggett · Posted 29 Jun 2009 7:33 pm

Anders, I just listened to your mp3 tracks for the first time. I agree you sound a bit muffled, and there is a lack of sustain. There is nothing like a push/pull for tone, but you have to be playing it yourself to hear the difference. It has been demonstrated many times that others cannot hear the difference in blinded tests, and in recordings. I strongly suspect your tone and sustain problems come from playing and recording techniques.

Your tone is too mellow. This is a common problem with many newer steelers. They are so afraid of the piercing highs, that they use too little treble, and possibly mids. I know, because I have done this myself. What sounds good to you playing alone, does not work with a group and on recordings. Crank the highs and possibly mids up until it sounds too shrill to you, then see how it sounds recording with a group.

Also, you don't sound as loud in the mix as the lead guitar (whose tone is great). If you don't have the steel up in the mix, it will sound either muddy or whiny, and sometimes manages both. You have to get up as loud in the mix as that lead guitar to hear good steel tone. Don't look at the level display, listen with your ears. This is related to the too-mellow tone. A mellow tone will drive the level meter high, but will still sound muffled to the ear. Turn up the highs.

The lack of sustain seems to be caused by volume pedal technique. You seem to be substituting volume pedal gutting for blocking technique. You are not letting the notes ring into each other. This is also a problem I recognize from my own poor technique. Pros like Jay Dee let the strings ring maximally, sustaining evenly with the volume pedal. They block with their hands when needed. They don't gut the ends of notes and chords with the volume pedal (unless that is what they intend as a special effect in rare cases). This is a tough problem to fix. One approach is to practice a lot without the volume pedal. This will help break the habit of volume pedal gutting, and force you to learn better blocking with your hands.

While there is no question some pedal steels sustain better than others, the differences are fairly subtle and can easily be overcome by compensating with the volume pedal. It sounds like you are doing the opposite, gutting the sustain with the volume pedal. This is actually a technique some jazz players use intentionally for a mellower sound with less sustain, similar to the intentional lack of sustain of jazz big-box hollow-body electric guitars. I would be willing to bet Jay Dee could play your pedal steel with all the brilliant tone and sustain we always hear in his playing. It's a cliche, but true - it's in the hands (and VP foot).

This is one time I agree with what Donny Hinson is always preaching. It's not a problem with the equipment. Better (or different) equipment won't cure the problem. It's the player. Experiment with your EQ, and work on your volume pedal technique and your picking and blocking. For one thing, try picking harder. That alone will give you more brilliance in tone and more sustain.

I may be all wrong. But I hope you take this as honest constructive criticism. I'm no great player or know-it-all. But I can recognize problems in other players that I have myself. And believe me, it's not easy to correct some of this stuff. I'm still struggling myself. The great players like Jay Dee make it seem so natural and easy. Maybe it is for them - but not necessarily for some of the rest of us. Sad

Anders Brundell · From: Falun, Sweden

Thanks a lot for your engagement in my case! I appreciate all the discussion.
The tone on the recordings was set by the rest of the band, who always tend to want a softer tone with less treble than I prefer myself. I don’t know how the signal was processed by the sound technician, but it was run thru a ProFex with some Emmons setting and into the control table – no amp and no volume pedal in the signal path.

The guitar lacks sustain but I can’t tell if that’s worsened over the years or not. It’s old and worn now and surely needs a thorough overhaul. Could maintenance neglect affect tone and sustain or have 14-stringers generally shorter sustain than 10-stringers?

I’ve been playing steel for 25+ years now and have had private lessons from Denny Mathis (San Antonio, Tx) Maurice Anderson and Terry Crisp, and Terry taught me to play like myself instead of trying to satisfy someone else with my playing. I regard myself a medium level picker and I don’t think I do anything horribly wrong that could explain the sound and sustain shortages.

I’ve attended seminars with Jimmie Crawford, Scotty, Weldon Myrick, Russ Hicks, Jeff Newman (a great entertainer-teacher!) and Herby Wallace, and I would say that especially Jeff Newman paid a lot of attention to our bad habits and tendencies when we were off guard, and hence could give us lots of valuable hints on how to play, and he said that my picking technique was good. Scotty taught us not to be scared and pick loose but to pick hard and with the aim to be heard. He told us that it’s wrong to coward-pick with a weak touch just because you’re scared to play a wrong note – that won’t boost your playing skills.
I haven’t been spanked for my volume pedal habits either so I guess that my technique is acceptable.

I felt totally lost in the studio situation with no other people to interact with like on stage, and that might very well have affected my playing. In any case I know that I didn’t play nearly as good as I do on stage – especially late at night when people enjoy their vertigo and dance and have lots of fun. That’s when I fully understand why I can’t stop playing the honky-tonks!

Gabriel Stutz · From: Chicago, USA

Hello,

I'd just like to put in a recommendation for Rittenberry guitars. I love the way mine sounds and plays, and you can get a new D10 for less than most PPs on the market. Here's a link to Bobbe Seymour playing one and mine sounds just about the same, I've heard others say they were very consistent with this tone, too. Gary's great to deal with as well. That's my 2 cents.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ba7dSHgqQkk

Gabriel

Damir Besic · From: Nashville,TN.

if you are looking for push pull tone, than the best thing to do is to buy a push pull guitar, either used Emmons or you can order a new Promat S-12 , I know couple S-12 Promats sold in the last year to USA but I don`t see them anywhere for sale used, so with the Promat you would have to order one tho...

Db
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Ulf Edlund · From: Umeå, Sweden

For "that" sound, I strongly believe that it's a matter of choosing the right guitar. I think pickups changes the feel more than the appearance (soundwise), unless it's a bad pickup.
A good guitar will sound good with most pickups and a guitar without tone will allways be a guitar without tone. No pickup in the world will fix that.
I'd be happy discuss my thoughts on this with you Anders. I think i have been where you are, but now i'm in tone-heaven! Very Happy

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