| Author |
Topic: Do We Have The Right? |
Les Anderson
From:
The Great White North
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Posted 30 May 2009 2:29 pm |
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Our band faced a sort of crossroads of opinions at a gig last night that got me (I was playing bass) and two other band members questioning our right to scoff at a vocalist who wanted to use an electronic enhancer to change the pitch of her voice.
The girl has a terrible chest cold that has dropped her vocal pitch at least two octaves (well, maybe 2 octaves is a bit of an exaggeration) . At any rate, she wanted to use a mic that brightens a person’s voice to give her a bit higher pitch. She also wanted the mixer lady to do the same with her mixer.
Our lead guitarist, and band leader, objected and told her that he wanted her to do everything straight up; no electronics to change her natural voice. The sit in guest steel player agreed with him whole heartedly. The argument started.
How many steelers in here play straight up from their steel to the amp with nothing in between? Not even a volume pedal. Our band leader sets his delays, vibrato, speed and intensity and reverb; along with all the other settings on his amp before each gig . That was my argument with him and the guest steel player. Their notion was that the band’s instruments were adjusted to acquire a certain stage sound; however, a vocalist should be as natural as possible.
As steel players who use an 12 to 15 setting amp (along with a myriad of other external gizmos) to change the steel’s sound, do we have the right to frown upon someone else, such a vocalist, when they want to do the very same thing? |
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Edward Meisse
From:
Santa Rosa, California, USA
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Posted 30 May 2009 2:48 pm
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Well, of course I do play clean myself. And I prefer to hear the natural sound of a singer's voice. But in a case where the singer needs to go on and has a cold or some other impediment, I say let him or her do what they need to do to get the job done.
As for musicians who shamelessly use a plethora of affects themselves, I have to wonder where they would come off telling somebody else that they can't. When approached as the true artistic tool that it is (and I agree that it isn't always approached that way) the voice is as challenging an instrument as any to play. And it seems to be generally the most effective.
_________________
Amor vincit omnia |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 30 May 2009 3:23 pm
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"Brightening" a voice is one thing, and pitch-changing is something else, entirely. If you can't sing without a pitch-changer, you're a fraud as a singer - plain and simple. If you haven't the guts to let people hear what you really sound like, get off the stage!
Singing off key never bothered Cash or Dylan. I may not have cared much for their singing, but at least they were honest.
And, oh yeah. If you're sick, stay home. |
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Les Anderson
From:
The Great White North
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Posted 30 May 2009 3:53 pm
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| Really Donny, the girl most certainly does not sing off key and she "does want" people to hear what she really sounds like and that's not a full octave below what she was sounding like last night. In my estimation she has a beautiful voice and she has as much professional pride in presenting her musicianship as much as any of us. |
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jolynyk
From:
Prince Albert Sask. Canada
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Posted 30 May 2009 4:38 pm
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
"Brightening" a voice is one thing, and pitch-changing is something else, entirely. If you can't sing without a pitch-changer, you're a fraud as a singer - plain and simple. If you haven't the guts to let people hear what you really sound like, get off the stage!
Singing off key never bothered Cash or Dylan. I may not have cared much for their singing, but at least they were honest.
And, oh yeah. If you're sick, stay home. |
I see a lot of guitar players (rhythm, blue grass, blues. folk, & some country singers, using capos more or less as a pitch changer. Would they be frauds as guitar players?? Would it not be much better to learn the chords, instead of learning a certain run or lick in one key (G), then just move the capo to keep playing the lick in G even though the song is in A.. seems like that's also fraud in a way... |
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Joshua Grange
From:
Los Angeles, California
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Posted 30 May 2009 5:43 pm
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Les,
Not sure what are you talking about here.
When you say that she used a mic that "brightens" her vocal, in traditional music speak that only means it had more treble. And if the mixer-lady was doing the same thing it only means she was turning up the treble also.
I don't see anything wrong with that in the least. Every guitar player or bass player or steel player adjusts the EQ of their amps, same thing applies to the vocalist.
By the way, "brightening" has nothing to do with "pitch", which in music speak means actual notes. If she had used a "pitch corrector", it would have changed the "pitch" of her notes, or fixed her out of tune notes. You would not find that on any mic, that is hardware or software based stuff.
I think you are confusing your terms here, and probably mean that her voice sounded darker than usual because of her cold.
Either way I'm sure it was a very interesting performance. |
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Per Berner
From:
Skovde, Sweden
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Posted 31 May 2009 12:19 am
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| Singing live through a pitch-changer, let's say raising your voice three or four half-notes – would it even be possible? It would take some mighty talent to stay in tune while singing in one key and hearing ypurself (and the band) in another! |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 31 May 2009 3:49 am
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| Per Berner wrote: |
| Singing live through a pitch-changer, let's say raising your voice three or four half-notes – would it even be possible? It would take some mighty talent to stay in tune while singing in one key and hearing ypurself (and the band) in another! |
Per, though they have that capability, the "idea" behind these pitch-correcting devices is not to raise or lower the pitch several tones, but to get you back on key. You sing a note that's 15 or 20 cents flat, and it automatically "nudges" it back in tune. Because you react to what you hear, as long as the mix is louder than your real voice, you don't know (or can't tell) what key you're in. So it takes no "talent" to use real-time pitch correction, even if it's completely changing the key.
Of course, if the singer in question was merely requesting more treble on the mike, there's nothing wrong with that. The issue I'm ranting on is using a pitch correction device - like an Antares unit. These units let a singer that sings horribly off-key sound like they're dead-on (though a bit robotic). This isn't what a capo does. All the capo does is change the key...you still have to be able to tune and play the guitar, so there's nothing "fake" about using a capo. A crappy player without a capo is also a crappy player with one. Again, I feel that a singer using a pitch-correcting device, or singing when you're too sick to sing, are things that just shouldn't be done. It's a personal opinion, not an edict from "On High", and no amount of rationalization is going to get me to change my stance.
I realize I ruffle a lot of feathers around here, mostly because I'm hard-headed and don't do "PC". People may want "feel good" and reinforcement for their opinion, but I don't play those silly games of "I'll go along with whatever is popular". I've seen steelers here get highly upset about studios using "loops" instead of a real steeler. Then you look on the stage at the next steel show, and there they are - playing along with "tracks". Am I the only one who sees that as just a little bit hypocritical?
All this to say you can't have it both ways. You can't do something that's convenient for you, and then speak out against anyone who does likewise for some other reason. Once you open the door to using pitch correcting devices or software, it's almost impossible to stop using them. |
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Edward Meisse
From:
Santa Rosa, California, USA
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Posted 31 May 2009 1:23 pm
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Well, I have to admit that you do have a point, Donny. Britney Spears almost continuous and obvious use of pitch correction is one of the reasons she gets so little respect in musical circles. And I agree that if someone is too sick to perform they ought to stay home.
I'm not a professional musician. In my line of work alot of people come to work when they're sick. It's not that they wouldn't rather stay home. And it's not as if they can really perform up to standards. And of course they are infecting everyone they come into contact with. But they can't afford to stay home. It's the money.
I agree with you in principle. But I am taking into consideration what pressures the young woman in question might have been under. And I understand that not everyone is inclined to do so.
_________________
Amor vincit omnia |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 31 May 2009 3:19 pm
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If a person needs to use vocal enhancement including pitch correction to bring their voice up to an expectable standard so they can perform and live their dream, then I think all those electronic crutches are a wonderful thing.
Would you condemn a person who could not walk otherwise for using crutches?
Would it be cheating for a person who was deaf from birth to suddenly by some new miracle electronic device to be able to hear?
Is doing the things you love and living your dream restricted to the gifted?
What would be the point of after the deed was done for the lady to ask the man “do you use Viagra”? |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 31 May 2009 6:40 pm
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| Whats a "Mixer lady"? |
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Bill Moran
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 31 May 2009 7:10 pm
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Ever hear Brad Paisley on the Opry ? No EFX on the Opry and Paisley is always out of pitch.
His records don't sound that way. My guess is a pitch correction device on recordings and concerts.
There are lots of people using them.
Just my opinion !! 
_________________
Bill |
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Les Anderson
From:
The Great White North
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Posted 31 May 2009 7:14 pm
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| Kevin Hatton wrote: |
| Whats a "Mixer lady"? |
 She is the lady who sits behind our band's sound mixer. We also call her "Blender Babe"
Bo, this girl can sing and, sings very well. In fact, I would class her as above average. She had a very severe chest cold and her voice was quite deep because of it. All she wanted was to raise the pitch of her voice a bit so she wouldn't sound so terrible. This girl has as much professional pride in what she sounds like as do our members and their steel guitars while in front of an audience.
For some reason, this thread has taken the notion that she needed voice enhancement because she can't sing on key. Nothing could be further from the truth. |
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Joshua Grange
From:
Los Angeles, California
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Posted 31 May 2009 11:24 pm
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HEY LES,
I think you are actually adding to the confusion here.
The word PITCH refers to notes. Like C and D and B FLAT.
So when you say that she wanted to raise the PITCH of her voice, you are talking about CHANGING NOTES.
I think you are actually referring to the TONE of her voice, like adding TREBLE or BRIGHTNESS.
You might want to get your terms straight to make sure that people know what you are really talking about. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 1 Jun 2009 2:53 am
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Why would anyone argue about changing the EQ of a voice ? Sure pitch is the wrong term used here but when the band was on the gig did they not understand that the gal was referring to " tone" and not pitch ? Then an argument broke out over that ? Holy Moly !
t |
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Tony Davis
From:
Brisbane, QLD, Australia
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Posted 1 Jun 2009 3:13 am
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Cant see what the problem is....."The Show Must Go On!"
If the girl singer has the guts to turn up for the Gig and wants to do it.....give her all the help she needs !
My girl singer turned up and played bass ....with pnuemonia...almost....against doctors orders....also played 15 days short of having a baby !!!!!!
Could have used any voice enhancement they wanted !!!!
I had a broken left ankle for a while....still played......the guys used to load and unload for me.........thats all what a band is about...friends !! |
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Bryan Daste
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 1 Jun 2009 12:52 pm
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| Why didn't the band just tune down an octave and tell the audience to "listen up?" |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 2 Jun 2009 8:00 am
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| Bo Legg wrote: |
| If a person needs to use vocal enhancement including pitch correction to bring their voice up to an expectable standard so they can perform and live their dream, then I think all those electronic crutches are a wonderful thing. |
Yes, if you want to do it in your basement.  Seriously, "performance enhancements" are simply cheating, they give you a phoney advantage. That's why people more important than you or I have decided there will be no more steroids, no more "corked bats", no more "doped" racehorses, no more brass knuckles, no more card counting, no more Milli Vanilli, etc., etc., etc.  |
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Les Anderson
From:
The Great White North
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Posted 2 Jun 2009 8:34 am
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Donny, does your scenario also go for steel players who play through a myriad of electronic sound changing devices to change the straight up sound of their steel guitar? The more commonly used term for this in here is a good "tone" .
This young lady did not nor does not have the intention of using the electronic voice changing devices continually. She just wanted help to get her voice close to the key she normally sings in naturally.
Don, when is the last time you played your steel on stage and straight from the pickups to the amp? That includes no volume pedal. 
Why didn't the band tune down for her. ????????????? How many bands actually do that?
Last edited by Les Anderson on 2 Jun 2009 8:37 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Randy Gilliam
From:
San Antonio, Texas, USA
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Posted 2 Jun 2009 8:34 am Play With The Singer
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| I Try to play along with the Singer,Any New Ideas to Make Some Ofem Sound better Is Ok With Me, Randy G. |
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Edward Meisse
From:
Santa Rosa, California, USA
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Posted 2 Jun 2009 9:29 am
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| Tony Davis wrote: |
Cant see what the problem is....."The Show Must Go On!"
If the girl singer has the guts to turn up for the Gig and wants to do it.....give her all the help she needs !
My girl singer turned up and played bass ....with pnuemonia...almost....against doctors orders....also played 15 days short of having a baby !!!!!!
Could have used any voice enhancement they wanted !!!!
I had a broken left ankle for a while....still played......the guys used to load and unload for me.........thats all what a band is about...friends !! |
That's what I'm trying to get at.
And as for cheating, before I saw the light and bought a pedal steel I used to consider using pedals cheating. Still I agree that a singer who can absolutely not on any occassion consistantly sing on pitch without a correction machine isn't a singer. Brad Paisley is a songwriter who sings his own songs (ala Robert Zimmerman).
_________________
Amor vincit omnia |
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Brian Kurlychek
From:
Maine, USA
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Posted 2 Jun 2009 12:20 pm
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I am all for letting anyone use anything they want as long as it sounds good and the audience enjoys it.
_________________
We live to play another day. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 2 Jun 2009 4:34 pm
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| Les Anderson wrote: |
| Donny, does your scenario also go for steel players who play through a myriad of electronic sound changing devices to change the straight up sound of their steel guitar? The more commonly used term for this in here is a good "tone" |
.
Les, I know that tone doesn't come from a POD, or a "box", or a rack full of EFX...it comes from the player's hands. Sure, I've seen dozens of steelers with big fancy rack units, half a dozen stomp-boxes, and even multi-thousand dollar amps. And you know what? The vast majority of them don't sound any damn better than the players who can really play who don't use all that stuff! Look, I've got no problem with players using that stuff if they think it helps them. (Maybe that's enough.) Still, I think they could learn something from listening to recordings of themselves compared with other players - maybe they'd discover they really don't need and benefit from all those gadgets. Nevertheless, there's still no way I'm going to compare that sort of "accessories" (or a volume or reverb pedal) with something like a pitch-corrector, a device that's meant correct for an obvious lack of skill or talent.
Even with a POD or a rack full of EFX, you still have to be able to play. An obvious "clam" with reverb is still a clam. And if you can't play in tune, the world's best volume pedal ain't gonna hide it.
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| Why didn't the band tune down for her. ????????????? How many bands actually do that? |
Uhh...who said you have to tune down to play in a lower key!? (Oh yeah - that's right. I forget - we're all country musicians, and we can't play in Eb without tuning down. Bummer. ) |
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Shane Glover
From:
Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 4 Jun 2009 7:13 pm
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| I sang one night with strepp throat. Literally croaked like a frog on some notes. Most of the time My voice cracked when I had to push a phrase. Do you think I wanted to get on stage and sound like that!!3 of the band members had no day job and were counting on that money to pay bills & buy groceries.I wanted to crawl off the stage & hide.But I'll tell you one thing if my band members would have treated me like that I would have told them to STICK IT where the sun don't shine!!!And having an argument on stage is very unprofessional. I agree with Brian and Bo . If it sounds good, the crowd and the club owner like it, and it makes you feel good I can't think of any better reason to do it !! I wonder if the singer was a guy would he have been treated the same way ? She was just trying to do her job as best she could !! |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 4 Jun 2009 7:27 pm
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| I am SO glad I am not in a band! |
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