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Topic: 1940s National D-8 New Yorker |
Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 22 May 2009 9:29 am |
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I just picked up this worn, but all original 1940s National D-8, New Yorker style body. The guitar has no neck selector switch, and there are two outputs, one for each neck. The outputs are the old style screw-on type. I'm thinking about changing those over to standard 1/4" output jacks so they'd be easier to use. What do you think? Change them or leave them original?
It has two rare Valco 8-string "strings-through" pickups. The PUs are very strong, I was pleasantly surprised by that. DC resistance measures about 10.25K on each of them.
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Jim Dickinson
From:
Washington, USA
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Posted 22 May 2009 9:54 am
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Doug, that's a cool looking steel!
Being a real preservationist, I would leave the MC1 style connectors on it, if you need some, I have quite a few in the archives. Amother idea would be to take a small allumium project box, that would screw on to the MC1s, they are real strong, and have a selector switch and phone plug output on it. Paint it to match, and you dont have to modify the instrument and you will get what you want. Over the years, I've done a lot of things like this, if this appeals to you and if you need any help doing it, let me know, Jim |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Andy Sandoval
From:
Bakersfield, California, USA
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Posted 22 May 2009 11:58 am
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| Cool guitar Doug. I also vote for leavin it as is. I'm wonderin, there has to be a way with the right adapters to make a splitter so you can use just one input on your amp but it might reduce the output a tad. |
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Richard Shatz
From:
St. Louis
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Posted 22 May 2009 2:32 pm
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Doug,
I looked at that one long and hard, but I decided to continue to limit my collection to single neck steels at least for now.
I never really thought about how uncommon it is to find a National-Valco steel pickup built for more than 6 strings.
About 15 years ago I bought a 7 string Gibson EH-185N with a Valco 7 string pickup on it. It's really strong, as well.
I'm not trying to alter the subject of this thread, but I would like to know more about the rarity or lack thereof of the 7 and 8 string pickups.
Richard |
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Billy Tonnesen
From:
R.I.P., Buena Park, California
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Posted 22 May 2009 3:15 pm
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| It is interesting how the one selector is labeled: Hawaiian, Chimes, and Harp. They have to be just differen't shades of a Tone Control. What in their minds and ears when this Guitar was produced made them think of these labels ? To your ear what do they sound like ? |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 22 May 2009 4:14 pm
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| Quote: |
| I would like to know more about the rarity or lack thereof of the 7 and 8 string pickups. |
Richard, I always wondered about that too, and last year I posted a thread called ---> Did Valco ever make an 8-str. string-through pickup?
In that thread Rick Alexander posted a picture of a D-8 National like mine with 8-string string-through PUs. I had never seen any until then, and this is the first I've ever seen "in person". So in answer to your question, I think the 8-string version of this PU is pretty rare. This Might even be the only National/Valco model to ever have such a PU. I had seen a few pictures of this model over the years, but the PUs were always obscured by the PU cover.
The Hawaiian-Chimes-Harp control is a bass/treble tone control, as far as I can tell. I prefer the brightest setting. The pre-war New Yorkers had a hidden pickup under the fretboard. The Hawaiian-Chimes-Harp control would mix in/out that PU. So that control was actually a pickup selector switch. This one might have the hidden PUs under the fretboards because it's a low serial number with the "G" suffix.
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Jim Dickinson
From:
Washington, USA
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Posted 22 May 2009 4:37 pm
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Doug, how did they get all those neat colors on the fretboards? Are they painted on or on a piece of paper under a clear plastic? I have always liked the grahics on the National fretboards.
Jim |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Rick Abbott
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 27 May 2009 6:29 pm
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Doug, What is the scale length on that guitar? Why can't I stumble into a cool guitar like that? 
_________________
RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Sehy #112
1975 Peavey Pacer 1963 Gibson Falcon |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Michael Winslow
From:
San Francisco, California, USA
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Posted 27 May 2009 7:42 pm
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| Mike Bagwell's steel is the earlier version. The National's with the colored Roman Numerals came later. |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Jim Newberry
From:
Seattle, Upper Left America
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Posted 27 May 2009 8:36 pm
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Very nice lookin guitar Doug. Looks like a fun minor restoration project.
Of course, you could use those two Amphenol to 1/4 inch into an A/B footswitch and have your neck selector on the floor...
_________________
"The Masher of Touch and Tone"
-1950 Fender Dual Pro 8
-1950's Fender Dual Pro 6
-Clinesmith D8
-Clinesmith 8-string Frypan
-Clinesmith Joaquin
-~1940 National New Yorker
-~1936 Rickenbacher B6
-Homebuilt Amps |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 27 May 2009 9:15 pm
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| Quote: |
| ...you could use those two Amphenol to 1/4 inch into an A/B footswitch and have your neck selector on the floor... |
Why didn't I think of that!  I have an A/B box and the two cords, so that's all I need.
As far as minor restoration, I'm tempted to repaint the wood hand rest because that would make the guitar look a lot cleaner. But that black finish has been on that hand rest for about 65 years, dings and all, and I'm thinking I should leave it as is.
_________________
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Roger Palmer
From:
Rossendale, UK
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Posted 28 May 2009 12:24 am
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| Quote: |
| DC resistance measures about 10.25K on each of them |
How did you measure them Doug?
I want to compare my National pickup output as I fear it is a lot lower. Did you remove the PU's to measure them?
Roger |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 28 May 2009 7:02 am
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| How did you measure them Doug? ...Did you remove the PU's to measure them? |
You don't need to remove the PUs to measure the resistance. Just connect a short guitar cord to the output jack of the guitar and make sure the volume control on the guitar is up all the way. Touch the probes of your multimeter to the other end of the cord. Assuming that the guitar is working properly and the wiring is okay, the reading should be very close.
Most old lap steels that I've measured over the years read between about 5K and 8K ohms. This is the first 8-string "string-through" PU I've ever seen (two of them on the guitar), and I suspect that it's hotter than it's cousin, the 6-string version.
_________________
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Roger Palmer
From:
Rossendale, UK
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Posted 28 May 2009 9:08 am
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Cheers Doug,
Using that method I only get 2.15 which seems a bit low
I will have to try measuring the actual PU's to see if there is something amiss with the wiring |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Doug Freeman
From:
Los Angeles, CA
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Posted 28 May 2009 10:09 am
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| We do all understand that DC resistance is not an indicator of pickup output, right? A pickup with a 2.15K Ohm coil could have HUGE output (think bakelite Ricks) if the magnet is strong enough. What DC resistance DOES directly affect is frequency response. All else equal (in this case magnet strength) the lower the resistance the brighter the pickup will sound. So a 2.15K Ohm pickup with weak magnets is going to sound bright and not have much output. I think the non-string through National pickups might have lower resistance. What variety is the one in question? |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 28 May 2009 10:34 am
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I have always understood that DC resistance is one of several variables affecting output. The magnet is important too. I'm not an expert on pickups, but with the guitars I have seen over the years... if a pickup's resistance measures around 2K ohms the PU output is weak, assuming that the pickup's resistance was 5K to 8K when factory new. I'm sure there are exceptions, but I've never seen any.
_________________
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Last edited by Doug Beaumier on 28 May 2009 10:38 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Roger Palmer
From:
Rossendale, UK
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Posted 28 May 2009 10:35 am
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its a National D8 grand console circa 1955.
It sounds good but it does have low output and I have to turn my amp up full
Sorry to hi-jack your thread Doug!
Your national D8 looks really nice by the way
Roger |
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Doug Freeman
From:
Los Angeles, CA
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Posted 28 May 2009 11:21 am
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DC resistance really does not affect output level in any significant way, but affects frequency response tremendously. The common practice of correlating DC resistance to output -- by which I think people usually mean gain or volume -- is entirely misguided. Remember, the best Rickenbacker horseshoe pickups measure around 1.5K - 2.25K Ohms and they're among the loudest pickups ever made. I believe the reason they're not over the top bright is that the power of the magnets tends to darken the frequency response.
But I hear you, most pickups that measure that low also tend to have anemic magnets and sound like crap. I have an early '50s National D8 Grand Console in great working order and will measure its DC resistance tonight and report back. Those are the conventional single coil National pickups, btw, not the string-throughs. Now I'm very curious myself. |
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Doug Freeman
From:
Los Angeles, CA
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Posted 29 May 2009 9:09 am
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| My National D8 Grand Console, a 1951 model, reads 2.16K on one pickup, 2.17K on the other, very much like yours, Roger. As with other Nationals I've had with these pickups, it also sounds somewhat weak relative to guitars with Valco string-through pickups or Rick horseshoes. Not sure if the magnets in these pickups can be easily removed and recharged, but I don't think you have to worry about the coils being intact. |
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Roger Palmer
From:
Rossendale, UK
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Posted 29 May 2009 10:15 am
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thats good to hear Doug
I will check the wiring anyway when I change the strings as the back neck has more volume than the front |
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