Dual 8 Tuning for Beginner

Jim Dickinson · From: Washington, USA

OK, Now you know that I am a fraud, I really don’t know anything about how to tune (or (play) the old Boxcar Pickup 8 string Dual Professional I just got in from FedEx a couple of days ago, the dead Stringmaster ought to be here next week.

When the device arrived, I found it had some issues, took me a while, but for the moment they are under control after tightening things up and getting the strings off the top of the wrong pickup (which will have to be replaced, I will make one) on the near neck. Then I put the tuner on it and found both tunings that are on it are not listed on anyone’s list.

Rick Alexander, suggested that I ought to tune it to A6 and C6. Bob Baker said C6 and E13, neither told me which neck ought to be which. Sort of settled on A6 and C6 for now, maybe E13 later when I know more.

Please remember, I am a Sound Guy, not a qualified musician, don’t even know enough about playing music to be dangerous, for now I need simple answers. Here’s the questions:

I presume the tuning order starts from the top string and goes to the bottom, yes?

There seems to be no standards on tunings, for every tuning there are several variations, which one do I use? Do know the A6 Rick showed in his Steel Guitar 101 video is attributed to Herb Remington, it appears to be a good one? How about the C6?, again there are several. Remember right now I do not want to do anything out-of-the ordinary.

Please give me any other suggestions you feel are pertinent, No, I am not going to quit, --for now..

Here’s what’s on it now, more or less, edit--- low to high--- had it backwards the first time..

Close Neck--E, G, B, C#, E, A, B, D

Far Neck---G, B, D, E, G, B, D, E

Please help, wish I could just ask Rick, really hit me hard, my sympathies to his Family, Jim

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

Try these tunings. You can probably find instructional material for both, somewhere! Maybe on b0b's list!
Low to High: Outside-Neck.
E13: = E~B~D~E~G#~B~C#~E
Low to High: Inside-Neck.
A6: = F#~A~C#~E~F#~A~C#~E
Most courses seem to only cover the first 6-strings anyway!
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After a second look, your inside-neck might have been intended as an E7-Tuning:
E~G#~B~D~E~G#~B~E
Your outside-neck is definetly a G6 or Em7 Tuning:
G~B~D~E~G~B~D~E, but; it could have been intended as a C6-Tuning:
G~A~C~E~G~A~C~E So, I would guess your guitar was previously tuned:
#2-Neck = C6: G~A~C~E~G~A~C~E
#1-Neck = E7: E~G#~B~D~E~G#~B~E
_________________
<marquee> Go~Daddy~Go, (No), Go, It's your Break Time</marquee> L8R, jb
My T-10 Remington Steelmaster

Jim Dickinson · From: Washington, USA

John,

Thank you, one tuning from each person. Have you any idea what the tunings on the thing were?

Jim

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

Far~Neck = G6
Close~Neck = Don't make sense to me!
_________________
<marquee> Go~Daddy~Go, (No), Go, It's your Break Time</marquee> L8R, jb
My T-10 Remington Steelmaster

Denny Turner · From: Oahu, Hawaii USA

Jim,

Please pardon any typos or brain farts herein; Memorial Day weekends are very tough for me, and this one is particularly tough with the passing of our Dear Friend Rick Alexander; I ain't in the best frame of mind .....and have a "terrible" hangover for the second time since ceasing drinking regularly 6 years ago; .......And offering some help here helps me get my mind off of bad things and onto good things:

------------

Don't get discouraged by the numbers / theory 'n all; Take it easy, casual and as slow as needed; Ain't no biggie; Fun and the most relaxed / enjoyable approach to learning is the best .....imho! But BASIC theory number systems are really not that difficult and not a whole lot to learn, and rather easy to learn with a month or two of dedicated nominal studying; And a person that understands the basic numbers / theory will most often be able to progress much better and faster than someone who doesn't.

Here's a brief and/or refresher of BASIC Music Theory Number System. An old study trick that works very well: Read in sections until you get to a part you don't understand, ...then go back and re-read what you did understand 5 times; Then read the next section you don't understand 5 times, ....then go to the next section ....and repeat this process until you get through the whole thing. Reading the whole thing over 5 times will further plant the info into the brain.
http://dennysguitars.homestead.com/basictheory1.html

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The two tunings I would recommend for a beginner on a D-8:

CLOSE NECK: C6 = E, G, C, E, G, A, C, E = 3, 5, 1, 3, 5, 6, 1, 3. This will coincide with all of the C6 instructional material which outnumbers any other tuning by far.

FAR NECK: E6 = G# B E G# B C# E G# = 3, 5, 1, 3, 5, 6, 1, 3. This will coincide with the common 6th tuning voicing adjusted to the layout of regular guitars E tuning positions up and down the neck for barre E chord; Which makes it easier for what you might have acquired on spanish (regular) guitar, and easier for other guitarist friends to help you figure out stuff. When you get the hang of things you can swap out a b7 on the bottom to make it E13 ( B D E G# B C# E G# = 5, b7, 1, 3, 5, 6, 1, 3) which will add just a little bit more to the bottom of what you've learned with E6, keeping the top the same for good motivation, and start you down the path of different tunings and what they provide.

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Don McGregor · From: Memphis, Tennessee

Jim,
Instead of spreading my brain cells too thin over several tunings, I have made myself stick with just one tuning for a couple of years now. I have really gotten deep into what is often called the high C6 tuning : high to low - G E C A G E C A

As mentioned by others, John Ely has a page that lists recommended gauges for individual strings.

[/url]http://www.hawaiiansteel.com/learning/gauges.php

I can't speak for anyone else, but I know I would never have made the progress I have achieved in this short time if I had not limited myself to this one tuning.
Now, that said, I, too have a double 8 steel, and I put what is often referred to as an A6 tuning on my far neck. This is tuned :
high to low - E C# A F# E C# A F# ,
which is exactly the same tuning as the C6 on my close neck, only one and a half steps ( or a minor third interval) lower in pitch. This may seem redundant to some, but it allows me a little choice in where on the neck I play a particular tune. By using one neck or the other in a particular key, different open strings also become more useful. This way, if I learn a tune in one key on one neck, I already know it in another key on the other neck. It's been very reassuring to me that both necks are tuned the same, only one sounds higher.
On the C6 neck, songs in the keys of C, F, and G seem the most user friendly, and on the A6 neck, the keys of A, D, and E. You will find that these are the most used keys in all popular music, be it rock, punk, western swing, Hawaiian, gospel, or whatever.
Lately, I am finally getting around to letting myself branch out just a teeny bit into other tunings, and am building myself a second double 8 to put them on, but High C6 and A6 will always be with me.
Also, here's just a passing thought. I initially took two the two outer strings off each of my two necks, as I have been a guitar player all my life, and just the thought of having to deal with 8 strings intimidated the heck out of me. That allowed me to get my feet wet without too much stress.
Coincidentally, the one who talked me into putting all 8 strings back on my steel necks was Luther Dickinson, of the North Mississippi Allstars, and currently with the Black Crowes. He got me to thinking of all the possibilities. Luther is a great lap steeler, himself, and a son of the Other Jim Dickinson.
BTW, the other Jim Dickinson (the keyboard and producer one) is a very good friend of mine. I have had the pleasure and honor of knowing him and learning from him for 40 years. He is my mentor in many things, and my hero in several.
May you be as good to the name as he is.

Anyway, listen to these other Forumites. Most of them have had way more experience on steel than I have, and, just because something works for me, that doesn't mean that's what's best for you. Steel is kind of a Zen thing, anyway, and everyone has to find their own path. You find what works for you.
and remember, they don't call it a "fret" board for nothing.

Billy Tonnesen · From: R.I.P., Buena Park, California

if you use any of the recommended E13th tunings starting with the little E string, I recommend starting with the little G# and then the little E string eliminating one of the bass strings at the botton. Some of the melody lines will come easier without having to use as many slants.

Jim Dickinson · From: Washington, USA

Thank you all for all your wonderful help. I am slowly going through it and will need some more explanations in a few days. I will be getting into it more this week.
I too am upset about Rick's passing, I can hardly watch his videos now, much less concentrate on what he is saying. It's also Memorial Day, I am now in process of cleaning 7 chrome plated 1903 Springfields, it's taking some time, I cannot believe how dirty three blanks have made their bores. By the time I got the PA packed up after the ceremony, all my would be cleaning helpers had fled.

So don't be afraid of sending me more information, it just may take me a while to process it. I wish I lived some where near you all, there is only one Steel player in the County and he plays a pedal, and from what I hear does not teach. Looks like I am on my own up here.

Thanks everyone,

Jim

Jon Nygren · From: Wisconsin, USA

Solid advice here. On mine, I use a6 on the bottom neck low to high- F# A C# E F# A C# E

on the top, an e13 low to high- E G# D F# G# B C# E (sometimes I move the low G# to the top)

This way I have all sorts of dominant chords on the e13 neck, with the major/minor chords on the a6. Plus they correspond to each other nicely in a I-IV-V chord progression.

BTW, id love to see this dual pro if you ever have the time to post pics. I have a boxcar pro too, mine seems to be a transitional guitar.

Jim Dickinson · From: Washington, USA

Heres the engine.

Sorry it's a bit fuzzy

Better photo, not as complete

The remaining Boxcar pickup

A DiArmond in place of the near pickup, in process of making a new Boxcar to replace it. Will probably use a small Neo magnet with steel spacers to get it to the right size, I hope it won't be too hot.

All in all, it works pretty well, the Lollypops are perfect. I am not sure if this is the original finish, there is no Fender Tag. I have not opened it up to see what's written under the tuner pans, I did squirt some lube down into them before I started cranking. One of the legs is stuck,won't extend, but, I'll fix that. The fellow I bought it from was not sure what it was. I think it could be called a Bubba-ed Fender, notice the knobs, they look like they are off an old Bogen PA Amp and the neck switch and the volume knob work backwards. # on the output plate is D473. By the looks of the aluminum fret boards, I think this is an early one. Your input would be helpful.

May we never forget...

Jim

Jon Nygren · From: Wisconsin, USA

Yeah, thats a real early one Jim. Roman numeral fretboards and the tuner pan style show that....my serial is D498. But I have the black fretboards and later tuner pans(narrower 'strip' in the middle)

The original finish would have been a natural dark brown 'walnut' color(or maybe blond).

Looks like a fun project! Let us know how the pickup construction comes along.

Jim Dickinson · From: Washington, USA

For now, I rhink I will leave it as it is. I wonder about the red fretboards, I cannot imagime someone taking the time to redo them in red. I would like to find a Fender tag for it.
Do any of you know where I might find some pictures of similar models un the web?
I'm curious, how does the sound of the Boxcar pickup compare to the sound ot the trapazoid?

Jim

Jon Nygren · From: Wisconsin, USA

http://www.rickalexander.com/BigSteel/FenderDualEight.html

I've seen a few others where the fretboards were reddish in color.

As for the boxcars...it's been awhile since I played something with traps. But I remember them being real close soundwise...maybe a bit more low end.

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