another tab thread

Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

an e-mail today got me to thinking about tabs again
we all agree that tabs have their place but i think that many newbies think that if they can just learn this or that tab,
everything else will fall into place, but we all know it doesn't work that way
its easy to THINK that if they can learn to play "farwell party" ( or some other song ) by tab they can play most anything

this is the trap that i think many of us have fallen into at one time or another
to my way of thinking tabs should only be used as a teaching aid to explain music structure or by an experenced player
needing to know exackly how a song was played on a recording
and NOT by a newbie trying his/her hardist to get a handle on the steel
whats your thoughts
_________________
proud parent of a sailor

Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!

Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I like the idea of a really fundamental and simple tab for a raw beginner (something like 'Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star' that I believe is in Scotty's instruction course), because I think it would demystify your very first steps. Certain basic moves would become apparent, and, if one learned anything from it, that knowledge could be applied to another basic melody - the player is on his way to understanding how things lay out.

I am emphatically against turning to tab for anything and everything after that; that's 'learning by rote', and is, I believe, counter-productive. The more you can figure out for yourself, the sooner you will understand the tuning.
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

by just showing you the tab it does not show you how they relate to each other
so i fail to see how that would demystify anything...but if they are put in the context of the scale then they can understand whats happening better
_________________
proud parent of a sailor

Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!

Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

How 'what' relates to 'what'?

My suggestion is that, by using your ears and learning how certain simple harmonies can be obtained from a basic tabbed piece, you can then apply that experience to figuring out a different tune for yourself. Then you're on the road to a fundamental understanding of how the tuning works.
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Brandon Ordoyne · From: Needville,Texas USA

I truly believe, that when you start out, yes, having an instructor TAB out things to get you started if the right way to approach it. Because, most of the time, you have a lesson, and when you get home, the instrument itself, is overhwhelming enough, let alone trying to remember everything you and the instructor went over for that lesson. Over time I grew to not using TAB because I was pretty comfortable with the pedal and levers, my posture, my right AND left hand technique, and I had stuff welded in my head from my instructor. Then I started video recording my lesson, and when I got home I watched the video and learned to pick out what he was doing by ear, and yes getting to see his movements and execution. But I do not believe, that a beginner should totally scratch off TABS, but also, he/she should not get to where they are too dependent on TAB. Just my 2 cents.... Smile

Brandon
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Joseph Barcus · From: Volga West Virginia

even though thats what I do is tab intros out I always suggest that the person buying the tab to take at some point and put the tab away and try writing it out on there own. just by reading it does not really help you learn it but by taking the time to write it down and get to know the phrasing that comes along with it is a lesson. just my 2 1/2 cents worth
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Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Tab is just another tool to reinforce the language of "theory", and I am not talking about extended theory, simple, 1,4,5 and home.

Nursery rhymes are excellent learning tools as people already know the melodies and only need to connect the dots.

Some folks fight learning theory, that's a mistake. All it is is an understanding of where you are and where you are going within the family structure.

It's numbers, if you can count and hear the difference in musical tones, then you are half way there. If you can't count that's one thing, if you can't hear the difference in tones that's quite another.

Lets talk Chuck Berry, nobody ever tabbed a Chuck Berry tune

A A D D A A E E D D A A

1 1 4 4 1 1 5 5 4 4 1 1

now think 3 chord Country songs.

I like Rogers reply.

Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

here is where i had a big problem with tab

i would learn a song by tab ( after a lot of pratice) and then i would hear someone play it a completely different way
and because i only knew it from the tab, i had a very hard time making the connection. it was very confusing at the time
it would blow my poor little mind how it was being played
it was only after i got away from tabs that i started seeing how it could be played many ways

plus if all you learn is tab you can't remember more than one or two songs at a time
_________________
proud parent of a sailor

Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!

Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick

Joseph Barcus · From: Volga West Virginia

after reading this thread a few times and also the replys I must comment on a few things.
some said that they no longer used tab and said its wrong to learn it. but I have to ask these people when they were learning and in the beginning stages did they not look for any way to learn and in most cases did they not depend on tab as well. I would like to add that one should not advise on not learning tab for we all used it as a cane you might say like a baby crawls before walking sort of.I agree with one other post that says it should be used as a learning tool for learning the sounds, and then using it down the road when you hear a song and say oh I remember playing that lick or run in a tab I learned. that is good but also its up to the player how far they want to go. we all know that scales are number 1 and one should look at these tabs and try to understand what part of the scales are working for this. one other person said they learned a song by tab then while out one night heard someone else play it different and it confused them I think what was said. that should not be a problem for theres lots of ways to play a intro and get a little different sounds. take the G note how many places are on the 10 strings on the neck where you could start a single G scale run lord lots of them. so to make a short story long I believe that if the person learning feels that tab will help them then by all means let it help them. and hope down the road they will toss the cane away and think outside the box.
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Andy Jones · From: Mississippi

In my haste to learn the PSG,I purchased a lot of tabs and got them off the forum and different player's websites.I am very grateful to those who took the time to tab out songs and post it for free,for anyone who may desire it.Tablature greatly helped me get started;but later became a crutch that ended up being a hindrance to my progress.It was difficult for me to remember the tabs and I found that if I figured out something on my own,it stuck with me.I honestly believe that if I had spent more time trying to figure out things on my own,I would be further along than where I presently am now.I'm now spending more time listening and learning by trial and error.That may not be the best way to learn,but it works for me.To sum it up,tablature is a great tool,but don't get hooked on it.

Andy

Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

Andy said

tablature is a great tool,but don't get hooked on it.

well said
what many newbies fail to understand at 1st is that the tab is " parts " of a scale and end up depending on tabs for everything

i think the tab is great for explaining a scale , a song ..anything. but trying to learn to play by tab alone is a dead end
_________________
proud parent of a sailor

Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!

Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Calvin, the song is the same, the structure is the same, the chords are the same, the theory is the same. If someone plays a hook or a melody line a bit different that's not a theory thing, that's improvisation within the confines of the structure.

Many of us, and I'm not saying this to boost our own positions , many of us probably never play a song the same way twice, but we do play it correctly which means we are staying within the "family" structure.

Two people playing a song different from each other is because they very well know the structure of the song, which is based on the relative chord positions which is the theory of it all.

When learning a song, tab is not the first thing you should do, chart the song by measure, write a simple chord chart, now you can SEE the song structure and this may help to define the relationships of the chords. This can be as simple as scribbling the chords on a napkin. Tab is a great tool but it's purely mechanical.

Delvin Morgan · From: Lindstrom, Minnesota, USA

This is not limited to tab. I learned pedal steel by notation. And taking any piece of sheet music and playing it after a short time is nice, but I couldn't play any thing if I didn't have music in front of me, and after while it sounds like a grade school music class. Very frustrating. By really listening to music and trying to hone some improvisational skills, which is very difficult if you you weren't born with it like me Mad

, does it start to make sense and become fun. One good thing about tab though, is the author tells you where on the guitar he/she wants you to play, notation doesn't do that. You have to figure it out for yourself. So listening and improvisation and making it your own is key to learning any music. If you have a tin ear like me, music is tough, but if you really love it, you will stick to it.

my buck and a half

Don Brown, Sr. · From: New Jersey

Tony wrote:

Eddie Juke · From: United Kingdom

Hi pedal steel players

I find this an interesting topic and I can agree with the majority of what everyone has said but I have my own opinion too.

Tab is a wonderful tool and it certainly helps players not only learn to play, it teaches string grips, pedal and knee lever use and with the help of tab it helps develop the musical ear, to where you reach the stage when someone plays their own version of a song you are able to figure it out, but I don’t think that comes in an overnight process, that comes with experience and practice, I think everyone who has contributed to this thread will agree they have learnt some licks or songs by tab that they still use on a regular basis albeit now with their own flair and ability.

Calvin, your quote

plus if all you learn is tab you can't remember more than one or two songs at a time

I am sure that a lot who have contributed to this thread and those watching can play more than one or two songs at a time from memory, even I can do that and my memory retention is at an all time low.

If it was not for Bobbe, Mickey, Greg, Tony, Joe, Richard B from the UK and a whole lot more posting tabs and video’s and I apologise for not naming you all the instrument would still remain a mystery, let us all thank God the internet You Tube and the PSG Forum for that, is it not the most mind confusing instrument when first sitting behind one, and as a friend Pete Haywood said “I have been playing 40 years but I still learn new stuff it’s got things in there that just suddenly appear”.

There will be players from the UK who know the name Pete Haywood, for all you players in the USA this man is still very elusive but with legendary ability, I can remember going to his house with a view to learn PSG, after about an hour of watching him playing songs that some must have come from tab on E9 and C6 playing full melody and his own improvisation which should dispel remembering one or two songs I had a lot of doubts if this was what I really wanted to do. At this time in the UK he was playing an Emmons D10 sent to him by Buddy Emmons, he had tracked down Buddy who was playing bass for Roger Miller on a tour in the UK got Buddy to come to his house and locally we all thought just what did Buddy make of Pete who had outstanding ability and a very similar style to Buddy.

My point of making the above also comes back to Roger and I quote

My suggestion is that, by using your ears and learning how certain simple harmonies can be obtained from a basic tabbed piece, you can then apply that experience to figuring out a different tune for yourself. Then you're on the road to a fundamental understanding of how the tuning works

At this juncture I can always remember Pete and other players saying you need to go away and learn how to play it, they would not really show you anything, if you could play their licks you were competition, how they learnt what and how to play they would not pass on their trade secrets or even where they managed to purchase tab from so for a novice not the easiest of tasks and in the UK things like this were not readily available.

Roger you know I can remember you back in the early 70’s when you played with Neil Innes and I admired your ability then as I do now, you are a gifted player but in your formative years did you not also learn from tab or take advice from Mickey Byrne or Gerry Hogan and pinch licks from players of the day in the UK. For all you players in the USA Roger played in one of the best bands ever to come out of the UK who never gained the national and international recognition they deserved, I think Roger is a very modest person.

I teach dare I say it Rock guitar and students have said “where did you get your style from”, I always generally say I have listened to players I have admired and pinched all the licks and tricks they have that I want and built them into what has become me along with 40 years of gigging.

This PSG is an instrument where a lot of free expression can be used, hence no need for tab, but this applies to all other instruments, learning to play from tab is surely not any different than being taught how to play any other instrument but in a traditional manner, without tab or notation how would a pianist learn to play a classical piece, “go figure it out” I don’t think so and the conductor of the orchestra would not want someone’s own rendition of a piece he would want it note for note as written by the composer, so would Ray Price, Buck Owens, Johnny Cash, Willie Nelson, Merle Haggard to name a few, learning to play any instrument in the correct manner helps the progress of any student, by comparison what makes all the great golf players great, the answer they still have a coach who is giving them lessons and advice, my daughter went from flute to piano like a duck taking to water but that was also because she had had a sound grounding in musical theory and knowledge so without tab/notation being left to her own devices to play piano she would not have made the same progress.

Finally my advice take everything that is on offer or available tab/notation/video/tricks/ licks and tips keep what you need, lose the surplus baggage you don’t need practice it as if your life depended on it with dedication and devotion as if you are playing at a gig where mistakes can be costly and you should get there, by the way “newbie” I can’t tell you how much I dislike that expression surely student, novice or learner is a more endearing term, lets see if we can start a new thread and get that expression booted off the forum.

Hope I have not gone on for too long and bored your pants off.

Regards,

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Eddie,

Hello, and many thanks for your kind remarks.

Actually the only steel player I knew personally back in the early-to-mid '70s was Gerry. I'd known Gerry since about 1967 when I chanced upon him playing at the Red Lion, Brentford along with Jamie, Jon and Jerry (previously Country Fever). He'd just started playing steel back then, and I'll never forget that day, because they asked me to sit in and play Gerry's old Telecaster, so as to give him the freedom to sit at his steel. Unbelievably, that was the first Tele I ever played, and I was converted to them in an instant! I was then with Eden Kane, and playing a huge Gibson Super 400 arch-top - quite a different story!

Anyway, I digress!

When I eventually bought my first steel, a ZB Student model, I naturally asked Gerry for advice. Back then I didn't know Mickey - I believe he and I started playing at around the same time, anyway, so it would have been the blind leading the blind!

If you can believe it, I asked Gerry how I could play 'Wichita Lineman'!!!! For my first tune???? He was patience itself, and he slowly dictated every fret, string and pedal until I had this barely decipherable scrawl in front of me. As it was Buddy playing that song on the Ray Charles record that had inspired me, I didn't see any point in starting anywhere else...

I was completely at sea, of course, but it did give me a huge step up, as there are some nifty changes in that tune. I learned much from it, and I can also recall sitting at his house one Sunday - as he played Sneaky Pete's rhythm part to 'Blackbird' (Suite Steel), I stumbled through the melody by blind instinct. It must have been awful, but I got started by setting myself difficult goals. There wasn't tab for very much in those days, unless you wanted to play 'Baa, Baa, Black Sheep'. My years on guitar helped a lot, of course, and I already had a good grasp of theory.

I was also lucky enough to watch Gordon Huntley noodling down at Eric Snowball's shop once or twice; I didn't have a lesson, but I kept my eyes open.

Of course I knew of Pete Haywood - I believe he was/is the best-ever British player, but I do recall hearing that he wasn't prepared to help anyone out with any advice!

So: I found Gerry and Gordon to be most generous with their help, but I always preferred to pick up scraps from them casually rather than have structured lessons, then work on it on my own. I really think that the door is opened much quicker if a beginner figures stuff out for himself. Had I not already been a guitar-player, of course, it might have been far more difficult.

Having said that, I'm still struggling now!!!!!
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

There are multiple threads with regard to this topic and I think after reading many of the replies from those that have been carrying the wood and strings around for a few decades here is what sticks in my mind. And yeh, this morning I find myself with some free time, so....

I don't think the term "pro" applies to me, what fits better is " seasoned and experience" . Bandstand warrior maybe...I don't much care what song or what key, somehow it just happens.

When many of us started playing guitars or Steel way back in the turn of the century,better known as the 60's and 70's, we didn't have tab. We had records.We didn't have teachers, we had records, where I lived in rural Ct, we barely had Country Music !

We somehow figured out how to either apply the knowledge we had from another Instrument( Chuck Berry chords) or we just found a way by sittin' down and plunking, no tab, no YouTube, no forum to ask questions and get 200 replies, just a basement and a Steel Guitar.

I am thinking that tab has actually become a crutch for some, maybe the easy way out, the quick fix. Now don't get me wrong, I support tab as a learning tool along with another method, a supporting format so to speak. I have written and provided numerous CD/Tab projects over the past several years to many players, but tab alone is not the answer, it's only part of the modern solution.

may I ask, what would new players do if they did not have tab or a forum ? I know what I did, I ran out and bought one Loyd Green LP and stayed in the basement for hours on end until I figured out one single phrase, then that grew into two and so on.
I played "Turtle Neck" for days, maybe weeks. I can tell you this, my family wanted me out, we didn't have all that fancy gear back then so it was me, the Maverick and a Twin !

I read where we want to learn an entire song or intro's or endings, that's great , but that's like passing your driver's test, getting your license then wanting to drive an IRL car that afternoon.

As a bandstand guy for many decades , like many here, some refer to us as pro's or whatever, I submit that it's not that we are pro's( I'm sure many are) it's more like we came from a totally different place, one where we had to find a way or "go home". We had to find a way to get on the bandstand and quite honestly that formula has not changed, we still need to learn the Instrument and some basic construction theory first before we played song #1.

If we are looking at tab and not really able to break it down into it's "musical value" it will never be anything more than a mechanical instruction sheet, just like model car instructions. Glue the mirror to the door, place the bar on the 3rd fret.
The theory of this is that everyone knows the mirror goes on the door of the model, we didn't have to be told why, but we don't know why the bar goes on the 3rd fret. That's a problem.

We have entered into a new decade where we are have bypassed the starting line and are starting at the finish line !

I say find a local teacher of any Isntrument, maybe piano, bring a track with you of a song you know perfectly in your head. Do not bring an instrument. have the teacher chart the track and explain the changes in basic relative positions. Write the chart, then write the chart in a different key. Listen to the song and look at the chart, follow along with your eyes. Have the teacher assist if you .

Now go home and play the song on the Steel , look at the chart and transfer the chart knowledge to the fretboard positions.

t

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Good points, Tony! The door opened for me once I knew where 1, 2m, 4 and 5 were at any one fret - the different keys were just a matter of moving my chair right or left Very Happy

...

Seriously - that was the answer; picking out a single-note passage was a matter of searching for an economical way of doing it. I, too, sat with records for hour after hour and, when I'd found where on the neck the guy had actually played, I immediately knew I'd got it.

By the way, I still think it's the best fun you can have with your clothes on!!!
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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