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Topic: is more always better |
Calvin Walley
From:
colorado city colorado, USA
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Posted 30 Apr 2009 10:39 am |
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i keep seeing someone ask a question that most of the time can be answered with a simple reply only to be answered with a complicated lesson on music theroy
i think that most times this only serves to confuse the one asking the question
while the music theroy answer might be fine for a more advanced player, most of the time its a raw beginer thats trying to find a simple answer
and giving a complicated answer seems counter productive
just my 2 cents
_________________
proud parent of a sailor
Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!
Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Dustin Rigsby
From:
Parts Unknown, Ohio
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Posted 30 Apr 2009 10:58 am
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Well,in a band situation steel is usually padding the song. I like to employ the KISS method.  |
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Dick Sexton
From:
Greenville, Ohio
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Posted 30 Apr 2009 11:17 am Is More Always Better????
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Oops, caught me with to much time on my hands.
Ice Creme......Yes!
Lobster........Yes!
Girl Friends...Yes!
Wives..........No!
Snow...........No!
Good Friends...Yes!
Why is it called Studying Music Theory, are they still trying to prove it. Why don't we study Music or Music Facts.
So is more always better. Sometimes, sometimes not. That's my theory... |
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James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 30 Apr 2009 11:51 am
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Less is more, more or less. I can break it down further if you need.  |
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Calvin Walley
From:
colorado city colorado, USA
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Posted 30 Apr 2009 12:27 pm
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my favorite Quote from Jeff Newman is found on page 1 of his book " an E9th chord dictionary"
it is as follows
"Many times the music theory and the notes complicate things so badly that players throw up their hands in frustration, it just is not nessary to know the notes if you know where the chord is and how to use it . simple is better is it not ?"
i think by giving an overly complicated answer serves no one , it may even make the new player give up thinking the steel is so compilcated that he/she can never understand it , thus costing us a new player
i have become a big promoter of Jeffs "just play the melody " because if you really learn it and learn to transpose it to other keys , you won't know all the fancy theroy but you will learn to hear what is coming next and where it is and how to transition from one chord to the next
all this in just 29 pages and without getting confused
its all well and good to learn more about theory as you progress but to much to fast is what kills a lot of would be players interest in our instrument
_________________
proud parent of a sailor
Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!
Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
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Posted 30 Apr 2009 12:44 pm
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It's a situational thing... sometimes it's necessary to know all the harmonic (read: music theory) information, other times not.
Real life situation I was in: A few years back, I was booked to play the "Country-Jazz Fusion" concert at Cameron State University in Lawton OK. It was a concert with both the CSU Jazz Orchestra, and the Lawton Community Jazz Orchestra. The LCJ Orch was comprised of band directors and music teachers and was an excellent Basie-style big band.
(Just for explanation sake, other players that have done the show have been Big E, Jernigan, Franklin, etc. Large shoes to fill, IOW.)
The pianist showed me a score for a Jobim tune that had a chord change on every beat, three or four chords to each measure. Holy crap! 
I was staring at it and a cliche' about deer and headlights came to mind. Then the pianist pulled me aside and explained that the progression was WAY simpler than it looked. Taking a four or five note chord and changing ONE note changed the name of the chord, but the other THREE or FOUR notes remained the same! Maybe only the bass player's note changed making it, technically, a whole new chord. But the steel guitar could stay on the same basic triad, or triad of color notes, and still be correct!
Well, OKAY! 
Jeff teaches that you can play along with all the chords in a harmonized scale... I major, ii minor, iii minor, IV major, V dominant, vi minor, vii dim... within three frets using pedals A & B only. And he's correct; you won't get all the notes, but you'll be playing correct notes, and it's a lot simpler than it looks on sheet music.
But that's not an excuse NOT to learn the right stuff, it's just a way of making it less daunting for the beginner.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?
Last edited by Herb Steiner on 30 Apr 2009 12:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Rick Winfield
From:
Pickin' beneath the Palmettos
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Posted 30 Apr 2009 12:49 pm simple
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Here's simple !
Learn the C scale in 4 positions:
Open
E lever
AB down
A+F lever
all the rest is arithmetic !
I do however,persoanlly enjoy all the complexities
what ever gets the job done
Rick |
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Calvin Walley
From:
colorado city colorado, USA
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Posted 30 Apr 2009 1:55 pm
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guys
don't get me wrong, on a pro level music theory is a wonderful thing but for a raw beginer just starting out it can turn him away from the steel thinking its to complicated
here is an example of what i mean
last monday i went to visit my old teacher just to visit not really meaning to even talk about playing but as it almost always does we ended up talking guitar he is a super nice man and super steel player
well he started talking music and by the 2nd sentence i was lost so he said come on and i'll show you on the guitar once he started playing i knew exackly where the bar was going next . it was a simple scale transition to the next chord
by learning the scales i could hear where the next move was going , i didn't need to know all the theory behind it
once i almost gave up on the steel because i thought i had to understand all the theory in order to play it ..and thats just not true
here is another true story
a few years ago when i was beating myself up because i didn't understand theory , i visited a well known player and he played a beautiful piece and then i started asking what note this or that was that he had just played .his answer ...hell calvin i don't know what 1/2 the notes are i just make it sound pretty .. i left thinking the man had lied to me
later i learned he had indeed spoken the truth
_________________
proud parent of a sailor
Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!
Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick |
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Ben Jones
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 30 Apr 2009 2:43 pm
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I can dig what calvin is saying (I think).
I try and preface my questions with a disclaimer that i know very little theroy and a plea to respond in terms I can understand. But still sometimes people just start going off on modes and what not and loose me in the first sentence of their replies.
On the other hand, I have on rare occassion learned something from strictly theorretical convos and I figure maybe if people keep talking theory to me some of it might sink in by osmosis. Its all good. |
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Calvin Walley
From:
colorado city colorado, USA
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Posted 30 Apr 2009 2:59 pm
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Herb
jeffs "just play the melody " also make's use of the E & F knee levers
and i am not saying not to learn theory , i am just saying to answer a simple question with a simple straight forward answer so as not to confuse the one asking the question
we want to encourage the new player not confuse and scare him
_________________
proud parent of a sailor
Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!
Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick |
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James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 30 Apr 2009 3:44 pm
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| Calvin Walley wrote: |
Herb
jeffs "just play the melody " also make's use of the E & F knee levers
and i am not saying not to learn theory , i am just saying to answer a simple question with a simple straight forward answer so as not to confuse the one asking the question
we want to encourage the new player not confuse and scare him |
Sometimes the new player needs to know enough foundation so he CAN comprehend a "straight up" answer. By foundation, I don't mean deep theory, either. Sometimes they might need to have faith in what they have been told(as you have found out, Calvin), and trust that something just simply works, and later you will learn WHY it works, if you want to know deeper meaning. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 30 Apr 2009 3:59 pm
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The problem is that all to often, theory is not presented in a logical sequential manner.
Music theory is essentially based on math. And like math, you have to understand the simple concepts before you go on to the advanced ones.
When we study math in school, we first learn how to add and subtract simple numbers. Then we go on to learn about fractions, Eventually we study algebra, and some of us go on to study trigonometry and calculus, but NOBODY starts off with one of those advanced studies without first learning basic arithmetic.
Unfortunately, people try to explain more advanced concepts to people who have not studied the basics.
I apologize for hyping my own work here, but this is the very thing I dealt with in my music theory book. My book doesn't have any information that can't be found in a dozen other books, but I presented it in such a way that makes it easy to understand. I did this by starting at the most elementary level, presuming that the reader knows absolutely nothing, and then proceeding to make each subsequent lesson an extension of the previous one.
The first lesson is the equivalent of presenting the alphabet and words like "cat" and sentences like "See Jack run, Run Jack run."
You need to crawl before you can walk, and walk before you can run.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Calvin Walley
From:
colorado city colorado, USA
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Posted 30 Apr 2009 4:11 pm
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Mike
what you said makes a lot of sense
i have never seen you book maybe it's time i bought it
_________________
proud parent of a sailor
Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!
Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick |
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James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 30 Apr 2009 4:11 pm
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| James Morehead wrote: |
Sometimes the new player needs to know enough foundation so he CAN comprehend a "straight up" answer. By foundation, I don't mean deep theory, either. Sometimes they might need to have faith in what they have been told(as you have found out, Calvin), and trust that something just simply works, and later you will learn WHY it works, if you want to know deeper meaning. |
I'd add to this, that, many times a player gets into something he doesn't quite understand right NOW, but as he forges ahead, eventually something new is learned that clears up points he may NOT have understood in the beginning. It eventually "clicks". |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
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Posted 30 Apr 2009 4:46 pm
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I'd like to recommend Mike's book to everyone. It's invaluable to any musician, especially this fraternity of ours. Even though I know this stuff, I have a copy in my library.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Calvin Walley
From:
colorado city colorado, USA
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Posted 30 Apr 2009 4:52 pm
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James said
I'd add to this, that, many times a player gets into something he doesn't quite understand right NOW, but as he forges ahead, eventually something new is learned that clears up points he may NOT have understood in the beginning. It eventually "clicks".
this is the kinda thing that will make a lot of new player's give up, the sheer frustration of being told well just memorize it now and you will understand it later
that's just wrong
_________________
proud parent of a sailor
Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!
Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick |
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Ron !
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Posted 30 Apr 2009 5:01 pm
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| Quote: |
this is the kinda thing that will make a lot of new player's give up, the sheer frustration of being told well just memorize it now and you will understand it later
that's just wrong |
That is not what has been said Calvin.What was pointed out is that each new player that does not start at the beginning (no matter how long they have played another instrument) will be slowed down tremendously.
What James said makes perfect sense to me and many other players.Even new players understand that when you don't start at the beginning you will run into problems along the way.
It is like going out to diner and ordering desert first.
The pedal steel guitar is a complex instrument and it takes time to master it(a whole lot of time).
Maybe you disagree with James on this and it is your opinion which will be respected but your are contradicting people that have a lot more time in on this instrument.
I have students that have over 30-years on the rhythm guitar and still learn something new every day on the Pedal steel guitar.
Each of them is saying the same thing about it....."Thank God I started at the bottom".
Ron
Last edited by Ron ! on 30 Apr 2009 5:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
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Posted 30 Apr 2009 5:08 pm
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No, Calvin... James is correct.
When you learn a language by immersion, as when you go to a foreign country to live, you learn to speak the language by repeating what native speakers say to you. You don't learn to decline the verbs present tense, past tense, pluperfect, etc. You just learn to repeat what's been said to you enough times that you remember it.
Later on, you realize the declensions, possesives, etc. But first you learn to speak conversationally.
Oftentimes, in the real world of players, music is the same way. The light bulb goes on long after the repetition has been performed. I've learned that way myself, as have many before me.
You're still a new player, and have a lot to learn, and there's lots of ways of learning. Keep your mind open and don't be so quick to challenge the suggestions of those who've come before you.
Of course, if you know more than we do, carry on...
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Ron !
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Posted 30 Apr 2009 5:09 pm
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Amen Herb......
Ron
P.S
I like your rig Herb....where did you buy it?  |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
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Posted 30 Apr 2009 5:22 pm
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| Quote: |
| I like your rig Herb....where did you buy it? |
Oh, you know... here and there.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Calvin Walley
From:
colorado city colorado, USA
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Posted 30 Apr 2009 6:10 pm
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Mike said
"The problem is that all to often, theory is not presented in a logical sequential manner. "
this makes more sense than simply throwing some one in water over their head and hoping that that learn to swim
some will but others ( me )won't and i had much rather learn to swim in the shallow water 1st
having never seen Mikes book it sound's like the right approach
it seems like we are kinda saying the same thing but its getting kinda distorted in our own inturpatation
_________________
proud parent of a sailor
Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!
Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 30 Apr 2009 6:42 pm
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Calvin,
Consider checking out your local community college catalog for a Music Theory 101 class.
You might find the subject less intimidating in a setting where other folks are starting out at the same knowledge level as you. The instructors usually love having interested students who ask plenty of questions.
Last edited by Tony Glassman on 30 Apr 2009 7:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jody Sanders
From:
Magnolia,Texas, R.I.P.
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Posted 30 Apr 2009 6:58 pm
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| I also highly recommend Mike's book. Jody. |
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Calvin Walley
From:
colorado city colorado, USA
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Posted 30 Apr 2009 7:17 pm
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tony
while i do think Mikes book would be a great book to read , i have no intention of getting bogged down in the theory end of this again, altho at some point i am sure i will pick up mikes book
i got into this to play the guitar not spend my time studing music , again don't misunderstand me i do think studing music is a worthwhile endeaver, i had just rather be playing
_________________
proud parent of a sailor
Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!
Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick |
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