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Topic: The Speakers We Choose |
Bill Duncan
From:
Lenoir, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 11 Apr 2009 5:41 am |
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I have been in a search for better tone mode for the last few weeks, and I have found some interesting things. One of the most astonishing to me, is the tone difference of speakers.
I've bought nine speakers of late; 15" D130F JBL, 15" D130 JBL, Black Widow 15", 12" D120, 12" 123A, Jensen 12", Celestion 12". Fender 12", and a 12" Carvin.
I used my Vegas 400, which has a Peavey Tone Modification Kit, installed by me, for the amplifier.
I tried single 15s and single 12s, as well as double 12s. I was extremely surprised at how good the single 12 JBL D120 and 123A sounds. The combination I wound up with is a pair of 12" JBLs; a D120 and a 123A. The D120 is brighter and "stronger" than the 123A, which is much more "mellow". The combination gives a tone I consider perfect at the present time.
I also tried the speakers in enclosed ported cabinets, as well as open back. The cabinets I settled on was a pair of triangular ported enclosures tuned for the 12" JBLs.
I tried a couple of 8" JBLs and some horn combinations, but found this to be a non-starter. I did not try any 10" speakers as I am tired, and broke from searching Ebay looking for speakers.
I am very satisfied with the tone of my '77 D10 MSA Classic. I recieved an unexpected education on the sound difference just a speaker change can make in the tone of my pedal steel. It is dramatic!
I tried to keep the 4 ohm match for my Vegas, but this turns out to be tough to do in reality. The impedence match, or miss-match, did make some difference, but not much.
I only recapped here for brevity sake, as I did a lot of work, and did some, kind of silly things, that in retrospect, do not need to be told.
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You can observe a lot just by looking |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 11 Apr 2009 8:21 am
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Thanks for the interesting report, Bill.
I like Tone Tubbies best, but they aren't designed for high powered amps.
The 4 Ohm 15" JBL that was stock in my 1978 Webb had a gorgeous sound. I don't remember the model number. It has a nicely voiced scoop in the midrange and really rich, full bass response.
For high-powered tube amps, I prefer the 12" EVM. It's tight, meaty and versatile. I've always been able to get a great LOUD sound out of the EVM. I imagine that they would work well with solid state amps, too.
Lloyd Green uses a 15" JBL with a high-powered Fender tube amp (open-backed). We all know how great he sounds.
I think that the aluminum cone on JBLs is uniquely well-suited for bright steel guitar sounds. Your ported cabs probably bring out the bass that you wouldn't hear in an open-backed combo amp. Using two different 12" speakers adds some dimension to your sound. The only question is, which one gets miked on stage?
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Bill Duncan
From:
Lenoir, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 11 Apr 2009 8:49 am
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Bob,
I think the most surprising thing to me was the single 123A, had more "mellow" than either of the 15s; JBL or Black Widow. The 123A having a paper dome may make a difference, I don't know. The D120 which does have a aluminum dome is much more balanced, and not as bottom oriented as the 123A.
The testing I did has made me change my mind about 15s vs 12s. I found the 12s to give a tone much more to my liking. However, the 12" Celestion, Fender, or Carvin speakers did not approach the tone of the JBLs. The Fender was by Eminence, I don't know who made the Carvin, it said Vintage series on the label.
I also tried an old '70s SRO 15 I borrowed from a friend, I didn't like it at all. It tended to "honk" with midrange.
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You can observe a lot just by looking |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 11 Apr 2009 9:28 am
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I've never liked Celestions for steel, nor Eminence (stock in Mesa.Boogie amps). A paper dome JBL seems like a good idea to pull back the high end a bit.
Your 12" ported cabs should give you as much bass response as any open-back 15". Sounds like a winning combination to me. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 11 Apr 2009 9:31 am
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With most of the speakers named you need to be very careful in single-speaker configurations, and even with 2x12 setups with JBL's, Jensens...really the make doesn't matter; you have to look carefully at power handling.
Either DO NOT run the amp at even half-power (roughly 1/4 turn of the volume control) and/or make sure you're not using any distortion effects - fuzz, distortion, or overdrive units that add some distortion - as that technically increases the power of the amp above it' rated level (due to waveform analysis, too complicated for this thread).
The JBL D30F is a 60-watt speaker when new, and older ones have to be run more conservatively - you lose about 15-20% of your rated power-handling over 10 years or so, whether the speaker has ben played or sitting in a box. The spider, paper and glue all age and degrade.
There's still the misconception floating around that the D130F (and 12" D120F) are 100-watt speakers because of JBL's marketing literature - which lists 100 watts
power as the rating. Continuous power is a simple sine wave measurement and has nothing to do with musical applications, The designer of those models, in fact, has gone on record saying they are 60 watt speakers...max...based on JBL's test method: push music through them at an estimated power level until they blow. He's tried to dispel the 100-watt misconception as he's aware of all the recones that have been done due to misapplication (I had dozens reconed for players when I had my part-time tech thing going).
No Jensens are made to handle high-powered steel amps; Fender only has the replacement speaker for the Steel King, an Eminence (but not the same 15 as used in the BF Vibroverb Custom, for example, which is not a high-wattage speaker).
Carvin makes no high-power 15's, except for bass models - those *might* work, but might not have enough top end;they do have high-power 12's.
Most JBL's and EV's used in high power applications (at least the working ones I've come across) have ben reconed with heavier-duty voice coils and are essentially a different speaker than the original.
It's an odd anomaly, but for high-powered SS amps the most cost-effective speakers you can safely use will be Peaveys, as they make models with the power-handling capabilities necessary. OTOH, with a 100-watt , single-15 tube combo or head/cab rig you (*IF* the amp is serviced/adjusted properly) get the similar volume/headroom and can choose from a wide variety of speakers.
But man, are you right about going broke - "speaker chasing" can both drive you crazy AND empty your wallet faster than any other "modification" to your tone! I have more "rejects" laying around...sheesh, if I count them I'll probably slit my wrists...
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No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Jim Strawser
From:
Montana, USA
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Posted 11 Apr 2009 9:50 am
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 Try contcting Ted Weber at https://taweber.powweb.com/store/, this man is a speaker wizard and priced well below all the other so called wonderful speakers! jes my humble opinion is all!
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"Steel players are like fine wine, we get better with age" |
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Bill Duncan
From:
Lenoir, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 12 Apr 2009 12:07 pm
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Jim,
I tried the link and it didn't work. Is it me or the link? Thanks, Bill
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You can observe a lot just by looking |
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Len Amaral
From:
Rehoboth,MA 02769
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Posted 12 Apr 2009 3:31 pm
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Try this link:
https://taweber.powweb.com/store/
The Black Widow 1501-4 seems to work best for me but I am always willing to try something different. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 12 Apr 2009 4:05 pm
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I just checked. The 15" JBL in my Webb is a K-130-4. The amp is rated 225 watts at 4 ohms. I did blow it out once, after 15 hard years gigging two to four times a week. I had it reconed and now it's been retired to my little home studio (too heavy to carry around anymore).
I consider it to be one of the best speakers ever made for country pedal steel. The frequency curve is exactly right, to my ears anyway.
I used a pair of D-130's for a while. They didn't sound as good to me and, as Jim said, they really can't handle a high-powered amp very well.
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Bill Duncan
From:
Lenoir, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 12 Apr 2009 9:54 pm
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I agree with Bob about the D130, or D130F. They don't do so good with pedal steel, they tend to get a little hoarse and neither sounds as good as the BW.
_________________
You can observe a lot just by looking |
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Matt Berg
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 14 Apr 2009 9:02 am Fender Princeton
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| Quote: |
| I like Tone Tubbies best, but they aren't designed for high powered amps. |
Bob, What amp are you using with the Tone Tubby?
I am using an Eminence Cannabis Rex, which uses the same cone as a Tone Tubby, mounted on a 12" baffle in a 1967 Fender Princeton Reverb. Although I realize this is a far from ideal rig for a pure country tone, it suits my more rock/blues approach mated to a Fender 1000 PSG or Supro/Valco lap steel, and is far cleaner sounding than the same amp was with the Celestion that was in there when I bought it. Small amps allow you to "dial in the dirt" without requiring deafening volume levels. |
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Mitch Adelman
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 14 Apr 2009 9:29 am
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| So where does the Blue Marvel fit into all of these great speakers? Lots of us are using it in the Peavey Nashville 112. Does it rate with any of the 12 inchers mentioned above? Thanks! |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 14 Apr 2009 11:31 am Re: Fender Princeton
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| Matt Berg wrote: |
| Bob, What amp are you using with the Tone Tubby? |
Mesa Boogie Maverick Prototype. I have a ceramic magnet TT in the amp cab, and an alnico TT in the extension cab. The alnico is sweeter sounding, but I won't risk it alone with a 40 watt amp.
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Richard Tipple
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 14 Apr 2009 1:14 pm
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Anyone have any comments on the Blue Marvel line of speakers ?
I use a 12" Blue Marvel in an open back with the Revelation ,Lexicon MPX100 & Randal 80 Watt power amp..
I get a great tone with this set up.
Thinking about mounting the Marvel in a closed back  & check it out.
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steelguitarguy.com |
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Matt Berg
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 14 Apr 2009 5:41 pm Re: Fender Princeton
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| b0b wrote: |
| Matt Berg wrote: |
| Bob, What amp are you using with the Tone Tubby? |
Mesa Boogie Maverick Prototype. I have a ceramic magnet TT in the amp cab, and an alnico TT in the extension cab. The alnico is sweeter sounding, but I won't risk it alone with a 40 watt amp. |
Does that create an imbalance because the alnico is less efficient? Do you notice a big difference? I believe my C Rex is ceramic, which is cool because it's a bit lighter and more efficient, and I think the alnico may have been too deep to fit, but otherwise, it's what I might have preferred. I like a stiff cone, my stereo and bass speakers use aluminum drivers. |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 14 Apr 2009 7:46 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
| I've never liked Celestions for steel, nor Eminence (stock in Mesa.Boogie amps). |
My two Mesa amps, a Maverick 1 X 12 combo and a Lonestar Special 1 X 12, both have stock Mesa-branded ("Black Shadow") Celestions ("Type:MC-90, Power Capacity 90 Watts"). |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 14 Apr 2009 8:33 pm
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I never noticed a difference in efficiency between the two, Matt. Since I stack them, I always hear more of the ceramic which is on top anyway.
Brint, I stand corrected. I always get those two brands mixed up.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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J Fletcher
From:
London,Ont,Canada
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Posted 15 Apr 2009 4:38 am
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I've been using a pair of old Jensen P12N's, that I salvaged from a Hammond organ. They have the most detailed high end of any speaker I've ever used, or heard. Also nicely scooped mids. They bring out all the harmonics of the steel in the best way. Much more hifi sounding than any of my JBL's. Seriously killer speakers.
Use them with my home made 30 watt tube amp. Just loud enough for the guys I play with....Jerry |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 15 Apr 2009 11:01 am
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Speakers are the final voice of an amp, so they're critical. I consider speaker selection one of the most important aspects of fine tuning an amp. There are some general rules, but I never know exactly what I'm gonna prefer most for a given application till I try some different ones in the amp.
To me, a big issue is whether or not I want to run largely in the linear region of an amp and speakers or go into the nonlinear region. Sometimes I really do like to run in the linear region - that's when the powerful clean preamp/power-amp into a super high-fidelity speaker works great. But sometimes it's nice to play around at the edges. The thing about nonlinear is that you have to treat every single case separately - I don't find "rules of thumb" very useful.
As others have mentioned - I don't usually care for Celestion speakers for pedal steel. I use these a lot for guitar, but usually the "clean" region in these is too stiff and tonally colored for me. But I found one exception recently - a Celestion Vintage 30 just kills in this Mesa Nomad 45 amp I have, at least for E9 (I doubt it would handle the low notes on C6 or B6 well). We discussed this on a thread on those amps recently. I'm gonna try a few other speakers in there, but they're gonna have to walk on water to beat that V30. That amp, as is, is great for my lower-volume gigs where the sweetness is actually audible.
On the Jensen P12N's (or C12N's for that matter) - I love one in a Deluxe Reverb or a pair in a Twin Reverb. But the very delicacy that makes 'em sound good makes 'em easy to blow. I have a pair that I want to use, but I'm afraid I'll blow 'em. I guess I should build a cab for these to use with my THD Flexi 50 - that could be pretty cool. That amp needs something very efficient but sweet to make it workable for pedal steel.
I also concur on the EVM-12L speaker - they're very neutral-sounding, and perhaps my favorite overall clean high-power speaker. |
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Leslie Ehrlich
From:
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada
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Posted 15 Apr 2009 11:40 am
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For me it's Celestion 12" speakers or nothing. And as far as clean sounds go, the Vintage 30 goes great with the 'woody' sound of my Sho-Bud.
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Sho-Bud Pro III + Marshall JMP 2204 half stack = good grind! |
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J Fletcher
From:
London,Ont,Canada
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Posted 16 Apr 2009 10:03 am
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| Regarding old Jensen P12N's, I figure I may as well use them, and love the sound while it lasts. They just sound too good! I have a '66 C12N in my Princeton Reverb, and it doesn't sound any thing like the P12N. Way stronger mids. Not the same high end at all. Don't like that particular one for steel. Good for a Telly though...Jerry |
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