| Author |
Topic: What vintage amp? |
Chris Harvey
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 9 Apr 2009 1:42 pm |
|
| Okay this has been really bothering me. I'm new to the instrument (a year) and am now on a tone search. I've just started playing live and I'm seeing many old tube amps used. I am a tone freak and I love my nashville 112, but I was wondering what tube amps the legends were using back in the 60's. Based on a google search, I see Tom Bumley had used a 58 bassman and continued using twins later on. I love the warmth of tubes and am torn, your thoughts? I'm fully aware that it really comes down to how good the player is but still, I gots ta know. |
|
|
 |
David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
|
Posted 9 Apr 2009 3:00 pm
|
|
| Standels and Twins. Maybe a vibrosonic, which was a Twin with 1x15. |
|
|
|
Benton Allen
From:
Muscle Shoals, Alabama, USA
|
Posted 9 Apr 2009 3:42 pm
|
|
Chris,
I would say that Doctor Doggett nailed it for you.
Cheers! 
Benton |
|
|
|
Paul Redmond
From:
Illinois, USA
|
Posted 10 Apr 2009 2:10 am
|
|
I bought a Peavey Backstage Plus eons ago as a "practice" amp. Then I bought another from a Forum member about a year ago. I sometimes play thru one amp, sometimes both (one "clean", the other "delayed"...no reverb used on either). My Evans FET-500 will soon be up for sale as I haven't "needed" it in a long while.
PRR |
|
|
|
Paul Redmond
From:
Illinois, USA
|
Posted 10 Apr 2009 2:12 am
|
|
I should qualify my previous post by admitting that I use a Boss RV-3 delay instead of any built-in reverbs.
PRR |
|
|
|
Tom Quinn
|
Posted 10 Apr 2009 5:20 am
|
|
| The guitar amp thing does not translate well to the steel. If you want a killer tone, find a tweed hi-power Twin or its clone. Other than Twins, I'd say a vintage Session 400 is the way to go. |
|
|
|
Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
|
Posted 10 Apr 2009 5:25 am
|
|
Session 400
_________________
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes |
|
|
|
Brian Herder
From:
Philadelphia, Pa. USA
|
Posted 10 Apr 2009 6:20 am
|
|
| Chris' original question was "what tube amps were the legends using in the 60s?". So I guess that was pretty much answered by David.. Fender Twins and certain models of Standels. Were there any other tube amps that the legendary steel players were using? I know that some (Buddy Emmons for instance) used a SS Standel here and there, but this is about tube amps. As for Peavey, is there any such thing as a 60s Peavey? I also have a tough time considering any Peavey amp "vintage"(as great a steel amp as they make). They just seem like older Peaveys to me. |
|
|
|
Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
|
Posted 10 Apr 2009 6:40 am
|
|
| Actually Peavey made a Mace about 30 years ago that was Peavey's answer to the Twin with 6L6's, etc. I've got a Mace head at the shop and it is pretty danged cool. |
|
|
|
Matthew Prouty
From:
Warsaw, Poland
|
Posted 10 Apr 2009 6:48 am
|
|
| In addition to the aforementioned amps I will add the Evans Hybrid amps. These to me are tone monsters with lots of clean head room. |
|
|
|
Brian Herder
From:
Philadelphia, Pa. USA
|
Posted 10 Apr 2009 7:41 am
|
|
| Oh man, a Mace.. I haven't seen one of those in years.. or a Duece.. I forgot about those. I still don't remember seeing any Peaveys in the 60s. That would be a fun topic for another thread.. who has the earliest Peavey amp. Getting back to the question, were there any other tube amps that the big steel players were using in the 60s? |
|
|
|
Marc Jenkins
From:
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
|
Posted 10 Apr 2009 9:04 am
|
|
| Lloyd Green generally used Fender Twins, and on the Byrd's 'Sweetheart of the Rodeo' album, a Fender Deluxe Reverb. |
|
|
|
Casey Lowmiller
From:
Kansas
|
Posted 10 Apr 2009 9:15 am
|
|
Didn't Sho-Bud make somee tube amps that were used by the pros?
Like David Doggett said, Standels and twins!!!
Casey
_________________
Known Coast to Coast as
"The Man with The Plan" |
|
|
|
Chris LeDrew
From:
Canada
|
Posted 10 Apr 2009 10:31 am
|
|
I use this '71 Twin for steel and Tele. It is Blackfaced, with the original Oxford 212's in it. My tech has modded the first channel with a lower breakup Tweed-like circuit for Tele, and the Vibrato channel is standard Blackface. The best amp I've ever owned, hands-down. I saw Ben Keith on steel with Neil Young this past Monday, and he uses the same amp.
 |
|
|
|
Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
|
Posted 10 Apr 2009 5:11 pm
|
|
| Quote: |
| The guitar amp thing does not translate well to the steel. |
That's only true of out-of-the-box amps or guitar amps set up for 6-string guitar.
It's not hard at all to take anything from a 22-watt Deluxe Reverb to a Twin and make it suitable for steel.
With the right tubes (often a lower-gain preamp tube), the right power tubes, the right bias setting (often overlooked, and extremely critical for headroom) and the right speaker - many older Jensens and the like not the best for clean steel (but great for really warm guitar-like tones).
I actually prefer the mid-power models; especially the '64 Vibroverb Custom (a hand-wired reissue and a little pricey) or for more-cost effective purposes, a silverface Pro Reverb. At 40-50 watts, set up right and with a pair of Weber Californias a Pro Reverb will be only a tiny bit less loud than a Twin but MUCH warmer sounding, and more suitable at mid-to-lower volume levels (where a Twin really suffers tonally). One popular mod is replacing the output transformer with a Mercury Magnetics blackface-Bassman-type; it's a much stronger OT with more punch and tighter sound...and increased headroom. While transformer changes are frowned on by collectors, this is an anomaly that actually can increase the value of a silverface model.
I've used 3-400 watt solid state rigs and a 40-50 watt tube amp has no trouble at all keeping up - IF it's dialed-in right. A the LA steel jam one player used a Deluxe Reverb - granted the volume for the jam wasn't blisteringly loud, but it WAS loud - and the Deluxe sounded better than any other amp I heard while I was there - the Walker Stereo Steel amps were the closest.
That's the thing many players don't get about tube amps - they don't just "plug 'n play". They have to be adjusted and tweaked for YOUR needs. Solid State amps are mush easier to use, cheaper - but also less flexible. A good-quality tube amp serviced by a knowledgeable technician who understands what YOU want as a player can make it work.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
|
|
|
Willis Vanderberg
From:
Petoskey Mi
|
Posted 10 Apr 2009 5:50 pm
|
|
| I have had Fender Dual Showman, Twin Reverbs,Deluxe Reverbs, Session 400, Nashville 400 and a Nashville 112. My choice for all around tone, Power and flexibility is the Session 500. It is heavey but with a JBL speaker it is rock solid. My second choice is my Evans SE-200 which I gig with, It also has a JBL D-130 speaker in it. |
|
|
|
Tom Quinn
|
Posted 10 Apr 2009 7:40 pm
|
|
I've been into vintage amps since 1966. I cannot count the tweed 4X10 Bassmans, Deluxes, Harvards, Prinetons, Champs I've had, hi-power Twins, the whole crew of blackface amps, and many, many oddballs.
I do a lot of my own work, and what I don't do I leave to Skip Simmons. Right now I have a 65 SR and a 64 VR in the closet as well as a great tweed Pro Clone from the late-great Blues Pearl.
Frankly speaking, I don't want distortion in my sound with a steel. And a 12AY7 isn't going to address that and neither is cold or hot biasing. For low volumes, for recording etc. you can get a wonderful tone. But on a bandstand with two guitars a loud drummer and a drunk bass player, you need 200 watts, period.
YMMVYMMVYMMVYMMV... -L- |
|
|
|
Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
|
Posted 10 Apr 2009 8:29 pm
|
|
| Quote: |
| you need 200 watts, period. |
Watts of *what*?
200 watts of solid-state reproduction does not (in 99% of guitar amp applications) produce the same volume level as a 200 watt tube amp without a cacophony of odd-order harmonics - meaning tonally the tube amp will hold up, while the SS amp will present a harsh, piercing tone that is not considered pleasing to the human ear. This has been heavily studied in the past. It takes FAR fewer, on average, tube amp watts to produce the same volume AND acceptable tone as solid-state watts.
Caveat - a watt is a watt in electronic terms - but WHAT the watt is being used FOR is what makes a difference,and in sound reinforcement SS systems produce different waveforms than tube systems.
So in this context, wattage alone means absolutely nothing (heck, speaker efficiency is often far more critical than wattage in producing volume). I've had the same mix of classic tube amps, from tweeds to BF's/SF's, Vox, Marshall, Holland, Magnatone PLUS 1500-watt down to 50 watt SS power amps and combos used to everything from steel to 6-string to bass, had a tech shop and performed consulting and testing for manufacturers.
A tube amp DOES NOT mean "distortion" - unless you WANT it to. A tube amp means flexibility to adjust settings, change tubes remove tubes, change cap values, swap out speakers and a few other tweaks (or major mods, if you're into it), combinations of which can get you a screaming low volume "woman tone" out of a Super Reverb or loud, clean, bandstand capable clean headroom out of a Pro Reverb, a Twin with two power tubes yanked (THAT will cut your power, but have little affect on volume!) or whatever in between IF you know how to dial-in an amp.
Most amp techs don't. Most techs deal with 6-string players and thus guys who want early breakup. Like you said Tom - a 12AY7 and cold or hot bias won't do it (although why you would mention a hotter bias when looking for clean headroom is a little odd, since it's completely the wrong approach) - a 12AY7 in a BF/SF Fender won't have enough gain to push those circuits for clean tones AND volume...a 5751 will, though. Add clean-running power tubes meant to handle high plate voltages (in many amps, even Fenders, you can make a few changes and run 6550s - they were in my original '64 Vibroverb), bias 'em on the low side, stick a clean speaker in there (not an original D120F or JBL D130F if you'll be hitting it with anything more than 50-60 watts or you're looking at a firecracker) and you're in business.
What you will have is an amp with 1/4 the rated power, but equal or *more* clean volume with decent tone. Turn your SS amp up to "11" and those odd-order harmonics will be shoving icepicks through your scalp!
I had some good mentors; Roy Garneche, Jim Foote, Mike Holland.
It's actually quite astonishing to me sometimes how much headroom/volume I can get out of a solid tube amp based on a simple design. Oddly, the more complicated they get, the less you can "tweak" them for clean tones(Mesas come to mind).
But to come back to the beginning - the number of watts (normally when expressed as more is" better...or "vital") is probably THE most irrelevant number tossed around when it comes to amp volume and tone.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
|
|
|
Tom Quinn
|
Posted 10 Apr 2009 8:38 pm
|
|
I've never heard any harshness out of my Session 400 and that is probably why tube amps have not been considered for pro pedal steel playing in 30 years.
Watts are watts, regardless of where they are coming from. It is a measurement, and there isn't one for tubes and ones for transistors.
As far as the comment on biasing hot, there are lots of reasons to do that, and I wasn't talking about getting a clean tone. Maybe you might want to take that chip off your shoulder too... |
|
|
|
Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
|
Posted 10 Apr 2009 9:40 pm
|
|
| Quote: |
| I've never heard any harshness out of my Session 400 and that is probably why tube amps have not been considered for pro pedal steel playing in 30 years |
I make a living as a steel player and have spent quite a bit of time on the road meeting other full time players out in the trenches. This statement is absolutely not the case in my personal experience. I see tube amps being used by steel players on stage and in the studio constantly . I have been sent home by engineers in major studios to go get my good (tube) amp when I tried to use a solid state amp.
_________________
Bob |
|
|
|
Chris LeDrew
From:
Canada
|
Posted 10 Apr 2009 10:53 pm
|
|
| For live steel playing, I've used both tube and solid state amps on and off for years. But for studio, always tubes. |
|
|
|
Paul Redmond
From:
Illinois, USA
|
Posted 11 Apr 2009 1:18 am
|
|
I'm sitting (not literally) on a 1966 Vox Viscount guitar amp with three channels that I intend to get out of mothballs this summer. While it's admittedly all solid-state, it was supposedly derived from the amps used in many Thomas organs of the era, and can be adjusted to run the gamut. Back in the 80's, I used this amp for about a year or so. It's big in cabinet size, the reason I stopped gigging with it...it has two Vox speakers and 65 watts of total power. Bass, brilliant, and normal channels each with two inputs. I used to "jump" the brilliant channel and the bass channel when using it with steel, then just adjust the controls to get the mids I was looking for and even out the spectrum.
PRR |
|
|
|
Tom Quinn
|
Posted 11 Apr 2009 6:42 am
|
|
There is a guy here who told me offline that he likes to play his steel through -- and I quote:
"A JCM 800 and a 4x12 Greenback cab..."
Just for the record that is illegal in Arkansas and three counties in Alabama... :- ) |
|
|
|
Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
|
Posted 11 Apr 2009 7:55 am
|
|
And that "offline guy" was me.
And it IS a great sounding combination - when the amp is dialed in properly, depending on the player.
Like Bob and Chris said, you see both SS and tube amps used, but for tone the choice is usually tubes, and many, many players will use SS amps live because they are lighter, less finicky, and inexpensive (if someone swipes your Peavey Nashville from backstage before a set you'll go buy another one later, and meanwhile use a buddy's because it's exactly the same - if someone swipes your '64 blackface Vibroverb you cry, take some medication, play horribly because you can't get "your sound" through a borrowed amp and try to figure out how to save up $5k for another one or $2500 for a reissue).
| Quote: |
| Watts are watts, regardless of where they are coming from. It is a measurement, and there isn't one for tubes and ones for transistors. |
True - in electronics. But what those watts are amplifying is the tonal part of the equation, and "watts are watts" is NOT true in regards to tone, waveform, or harmonics. Watts also don't mean anything at all when speaker efficiency is different between two amps of the same power.
Point - that statement is completely irrelevant in a musical context.
Solid state amps are popular for steel because 1) they are clean-sounding, 2) they are relatively cheap, 3) they require little adjustment or service, and 4) Peavey has marketed heavily to the steel guitar community.
But why do players who use Peaveys use 200-300 watt amps and some tube amp players use 50-100 watt amps - and yet get equal volume and headroom?
It's because of what I talked about earlier - knowing what you are doing with tube amps and NOT using the simple guidelines for adjustment used in 6-string playing.
The harmonic content of a the output stage is diametrically opposed to that of a solid-state output stage;the even order harmonics reaching the listener's ear are pleasing; odd-order harmonics sound harsh and brittle.
You don't notice it until you really hit high volume and something starts to hit the edge of distortion - when a tube amp hits that edge, it still "sounds" clean - because the ear hears non-piercing, smooth tones. In fact, very often a tube amp sound can be quite distorted before the *ear* perceives it as distortion - it's still clean as far as the listener is concerned.
But when the typical SS amp hits that edge it's a tonal train wreck. As the waveform becomes more "edged" the odd-order harmonics are more pronounced, and the amp sounds gritty, harsh, and the "icepick highs" appear.
This is why SS amps without exception require more power (watts) to achieve the same clean volume (loudness with clean headroom) as a typical tube amp IF the tube amp is properly set up for a good amount of headroom.
(sidebar - some players DO NOT like the sound of clean tube amps with steel. The warmer harmonic content sounds "wrong" to them in a steel context. But years of experience have shown that it's a small minority of players)
Classic steel recordings from the 50's and 60's were done with tube amps, and tube amps were (and still are) the "weapons of choice" in the studio, where volume isn't necessary - an older example is Lloyd Green's work on Sweethearts of the Rodeo by The Byrds, recorded with a Deluxe Reverb.
Then when the "distortion wars" among tube amp builders started in the late 60's AND decent (but clean-only) SS amps became available at much cheaper prices, steel players moved to SS - they didn't usually WANT distortion, so expensive tube guitar amps built to enhance distortion characteristics didn't make sense when compared to a SS amp with nothing but clean sounds...at usable volume levels...was available for half the price. Good quality tubes also became much harder to find. Even as a 6-stringer I moved to FET-based solid state amps that were made to emulate tubes...but quickly found that while some of the warmth was there, all the volume and punch was gone.
The "speaker wars" entered the picture - players dumped their Jensens in favor of tighter, cleaner, JBL's...not realizing JBL's marketing was a bit deceiving, and D120F's/130F's advertised as handling "100 watts continuous power" were making me and other tech lots of money on recones, because they only handle 60 watts (when new) RMS.
Here's another case of "watts DOES NOT equal watts" - "continuous" power is a mathematical calculation that assumes a steady sine wave. The minute you introduce variations to that wave - ESPECIALLY even slightly distorted ones (the "warm" clean sound that still sounds clean) "continuous becomes irrelevant. This means that in practical application a continuous power rating is irrelevant - and with those JBL models (the "F" models handling roughly twice the power of the original non-F models) the RMS power handling is 60 watts new, 40-50 when 10 years old or so. Even the designer has written articles and posted on the internet to explain that they are NOT 100 watt-capable speakers.
Yet we read posts from steelers with 200-300 watt solid-state amps (or SF Vibrosonics, new Vibrasonics...note the difference in spelling...or Twins loaded with a single-15) asking about JBL's. If you play at half the volume of a 200-300 watt amp you will have no problem, as then you're only hitting the speaker with 20-30 watts (it takes a tenfold increase in power to double the volume); but crank it up to 3/4 or so and fzzzzt....time for a recone, and a confused player that assumes his speaker was defective.
A little off the track, but important because speaker efficiency=volume, even more so than power. This is why many bass rigs use 1000-1500 watt SS power amps for ONE 2x10 cabinet; bass speakers, in order to handle low frequencies and stay clean, are very "robust" and it takes a ton of clean power to move one AND get decent tone. OTOH, that power level needed if very significantly different depending on or firnds the odd-order and even-order harmonics.
You can use a 300-watt SVT tube head (even-order harmonics) with that same inefficient 2x10 cabinet and it will put out MORE volume than the monstrous SS rig (I double on bass and have had rigs of all types and compared these amps/speakers at "bass jams") - so here is another prime example of the mistaken "watts are watts" statement in a MUSICAL context.
We could get into "soft clipping", "inharmonic distortion", and subjects about push-pull tube amp design to reduce inherent odd-order harmonics and enhance the even-order harmonics (an important part of proper biasing) and a myriad of other subjects...so don't attack the technicals aspects of this post, as I'm being VERY brief and general.
But the simple facts are 1) a number of watts is not a guarantee of any sort of volume, tone, or practical application, 2) clean output power with equal RMS numbers compared between a SS amp and a tube amp with the same speakers does not mean equal volume - the 200 watt tube amp will be perceptibly louder than the SS amp, and 3) as clipping is reached with either system, SS amplifiers will begin to produce harsh tones while the tube amp will produce smooth tones.
Last - it is NOT hard to set up a Fender, Marshall or similar amp using 6L6, 6V6, EL34, 6550 and other octal power tubes as a "clean machine", and that clean amp will be louder and have a warmer sound than a typical 200-300 watt SS amp. It IS difficult with cathode-biased amps (usually recognized by the use of EL84 tubes, but many early tweeds and such used cathode biasing).
What it is NOT is cheap. If you want simple, decent-sounding clean tones a SS amp is a great choice. But if you really want rich, warm tones a tube amp will be far better - but more expensive and NEVER a "clean machine" right out of the box. Tube amps always require setup and periodic service (they all come from the factory set one way, which does not work for all players - hence the interest in biasing, different preamp tubes and output tubes, rectifiers and speakers). Tube amps (good ones) cost more money, are more finicky, require TLC...but for most players they are superior in tone.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
|
|
|
Chris LeDrew
From:
Canada
|
Posted 11 Apr 2009 8:08 am
|
|
| Regarding Lloyd on Sweetheart of the Rodeo, a fun little thing to do is compare a song like "You Ain't Going Nowhere" - recorded in Nashville Using a Deluxe -and "All I Have Are Memories" - recorded in L.A. using a Twin. Both have great tube tone, but you can clearly hear the increased headroom of the Twin. The Deluxe breaks up a bit more, while the Twin just sounds bigger in general with a cleaner tone. |
|
|
|
