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Topic: Clueless Over Keyless |
Bill Duncan
From:
Lenoir, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2009 4:54 am |
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I've have no experience with a key-less head guitar and in searching for a new guitar, I've been giving key-less a little thought.
The guitar appears to be shorter, therefore maybe lighter, but what are the major downsides to the key-less? What are the big pluses?
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You can observe a lot just by looking |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2009 7:11 am
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| There are some players that say that the tone from a keyless is not what you get from a keyed guitar- I'm not sure- there are too many other variables. Also - there are times that changing strings can be a bit more challenging on a keyless guitar- depending on the type of keyless unit being employed. The advantages are a shorter slightly lighter guitar and less hysteresis (the tendency for a string that is lowered to come back sharp). |
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Michael Johnstone
From:
Sylmar,Ca. USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2009 9:17 am
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| Keyless guitars are way cool in many ways. This subject has been hashed to death around here and if you do a forum search for that subject you'll see what I mean - but in a nutshell it goes like this: There are a certain type of player that can't stand the look of a keyless and scrapes up all kinds of reasons to bash them. Then there are other "blasphemers" like myself who find them lighter,smaller,more focused in tone and easier to change strings and work on. Hard to change strings? If you are having trouble changing strings on a keyless you shouldn't be attempting to put your fingerpicks on. Add to that they stay in tune better and rarely and in the case of my Excel - never break strings. In the eyes of keyless proponents,they also have a beauty,simplicity,efficiency and symmetry that makes keyed guitars seem like an anachronism. A couple aesthetic exceptions would be certain Sho-Buds,ZBs,Bigsbys and the like which though beautiful to behold,are wonderful but impractical pieces of Americana mechanical folk art. Don't get me wrong - I love all steel guitars for what they are but in the world in which I live,tweek,schlepp,fly,drive and play as a working steel player however,a keyless U-12 is the most bang for the buck ever devised. I read a statement a long time ago and it said something to the effect that if you took the mechanical and musical requirements for what a pedal steel must do and gave that criteria to a mechanical engineer who had never seen a pedal steel and told him to build one,he would come up with a keyless design. |
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Bill Duncan
From:
Lenoir, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2009 9:45 am
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Thanks Michael,
Your answer was to the point, and educational. You gave me some things to think on.
The look of a key-less is "abrupt", and would take some getting used to. I can see several advantages in the design. Thanks, again.
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You can observe a lot just by looking |
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John Polstra
From:
Lopez Island, WA, USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2009 2:44 pm
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Michael,
| Quote: |
| I read a statement a long time ago and it said something to the effect that if you took the mechanical and musical requirements for what a pedal steel must do and gave that criteria to a mechanical engineer who had never seen a pedal steel and told him to build one,he would come up with a keyless design. |
If an engineer had designed any of our existing musical instruments -- violin, guitar, sax, you name it -- he'd try out the finished product and say, "I have failed. This thing is practically impossible to operate."
John |
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Gary Cosden
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2009 2:50 pm
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Hey Michael - I'd love to hear how that Excel sounds.
Any clips? I believe the keyless Excels have a 25.5" scale which also has an impact on tone. |
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Richard Damron
From:
Gallatin, Tennessee, USA (deceased)
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Posted 4 Apr 2009 6:23 pm
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Michael -
Uh, yer not bashful 'bout sayin' what's on your mind are ya?
Saved me the trouble. Love my keyless, too.
Richard |
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Chuck Snider R.I.P.
From:
West Virginia, USA - Morgantown, WV
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Posted 4 Apr 2009 7:07 pm
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Bill, I have a GFI U-12 only available with keyless, and I am very happy with it. It is actually easier and quicker to change strings than a keyed guitar. GFI does have keyless tuners available on their other guitars as an option.
If you're gonna be at the Kannapolis jam on April 11th, I should have my guitar there if you wanna check it out. Or, I live near Roxboro, if you wanna cruise up here to see it and try it out. I am very happy with the GFI guitar, and very much like the keyless tuners. If you wanna come up here let me know and we'll set soemthing up and I'll give you directions.
-Chuck
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GFI U-12 Ultra Keyless, Carter Black U-12, both with Alumitones, and a sweet '70 Sho-Bud Permanent D-10, NV400 in Rick Johnson cabs, NV112, '73 Vibrosonic in Rick Johnson cabs, Hilton pedal, Steeler's Choice seat, Bessdang Gizmos from Dale Hansen, and a few other widgets and doodads.
I may not sound good, I just don't wanna sound bad. |
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Tom Quinn
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Posted 4 Apr 2009 8:24 pm
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| The standard in bedroom guitars... |
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Henry Nagle
From:
Santa Rosa, California
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Posted 4 Apr 2009 9:05 pm
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I had a Kline keyless. It's a great guitar. It hardly ever needs to be tuned and is much easier to change strings on.
I can't speak for a difference in tone- I'd need to have a bunch of guitars right next to each other before I'd venture an opinion.
I've definitely played keyed guitars that sounded worse than my Kline.
I have a keyed Williams that I'm really happy with, but if I were ordering it today I'd get it keyless. If you have to fly to play, I think it's really superior.. |
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Nick Reed
From:
Russellville, KY USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2009 10:30 pm
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Bill,
My recommendation is to stay away from a Keyless Guitar. I personally don't care for them.
Nick |
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Chuck Snider R.I.P.
From:
West Virginia, USA - Morgantown, WV
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Posted 5 Apr 2009 7:42 am
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Bill, I have a GFI U-12 only available with keyless, and I am very happy with it. It is actually easier and quicker to change strings than a keyed guitar. GFI does have keyless tuners available on their other guitars as an option.
If you're gonna be at the Kannapolis jam on April 11th, I should have my guitar there if you wanna check it out. Or, I live near Roxboro, if you wanna cruise up here to see it and try it out. I am very happy with the GFI guitar, and very much like the keyless tuners. If you wanna come up here let me know and we'll set soemthing up and I'll give you directions.
-Chuck
_________________
GFI U-12 Ultra Keyless, Carter Black U-12, both with Alumitones, and a sweet '70 Sho-Bud Permanent D-10, NV400 in Rick Johnson cabs, NV112, '73 Vibrosonic in Rick Johnson cabs, Hilton pedal, Steeler's Choice seat, Bessdang Gizmos from Dale Hansen, and a few other widgets and doodads.
I may not sound good, I just don't wanna sound bad. |
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Olli Haavisto
From:
Jarvenpaa,Finland
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Posted 5 Apr 2009 8:17 am
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I wouldn`t recommend someone to stay away from something just because I don`t "personally care for it".
Why would be more helpful. 
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Olli Haavisto
Finland |
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Skip Ellis
From:
Bradenton, Fl USA
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Posted 5 Apr 2009 2:02 pm
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Olli, you have to remember that my buddy Nick had "Emmons" tattooed on his butt at birth. Now for my own thought on keyless guitars, go to my friend Roy Ayres' website (www.roysfootprints.com) and listen to his Excel - it's a wonderful sounding instrument as well as light and compact. Personally, I don't care for the looks of the things and probably wouldn't buy one, but they sure can sound good, and the people who have them swear by them.
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2022 Brook Lyn, 2014 Martin 000-18, 2022 Ibanez GB-10, two homebrew Teles, Evans RE200 amp, understanding wife of 49 years. 'Steeless' at the moment |
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Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 5 Apr 2009 3:59 pm
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| Nick Reed wrote: |
Bill,
My recommendation is to stay away from a Keyless Guitar. I personally don't care for them.
Nick |
Key word here is "personally" |
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Nick Reed
From:
Russellville, KY USA
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Posted 5 Apr 2009 8:41 pm
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As Stan Laurel used to say "another fine mess you've got us into Olli"  |
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Olli Haavisto
From:
Jarvenpaa,Finland
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Posted 5 Apr 2009 10:12 pm
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 Didn`t know about the tattoo.....
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Olli Haavisto
Finland |
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Scott Howard
From:
Georgetown, TN, USA
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Posted 8 Apr 2009 5:47 pm
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| I have had both keyed and keyless and had at least 2 that I played before converting them to keyless . I am in the process of converting my 3rd . I love the compact feel and prefer them to a keyed guitar for many reasons . Just my opinion and thats not worth much . |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 8 Apr 2009 7:48 pm
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I like keyless because:
- I can change strings faster on a keyless
- They look more symmetrical
- They tend to have less hysteresis.
- The 12th fret is at the middle of the cabinet.
- The tone is slightly more consistent from one string to the next.
- They have a smaller footprint on stage
These are all little things, though. None of them are important enough to keep me from playing a keyed guitar if I like it. My main guitar right now is keyless (Williams D-12X).
The downsides are that your choice of builders is limited, and it doesn't look as traditional.
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-πππ- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Jim Bob Sedgwick
From:
Clinton, Missouri USA
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Posted 8 Apr 2009 8:39 pm
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b0b Nailed it. It's personal preference. I have owned both and settled on keyless due to the postage stamp sized bandstands. Keyless takes up less space.
As far as sound goes, I defy anyone to listen to a recording of a keyless and a keyed guitar done by the same player, and tell ANY difference. JMO |
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Alan Harrison
From:
Murfreesboro Tennessee, USA
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Posted 9 Apr 2009 4:04 am Keyless'sss
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What Bob Said! I have had two in the past few years and loved both of them. If Del Mullen made a G2 keyless, I would be on the list for a new one....alan
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Mullen (Black) Pre G-2 9x7, B.L. 705 PUP's, Evans SE 200 Telonics NEO 15-4, BJS Bar, Peterson Strobo Flip, Steelers Choice Seat, Folgers Coffee and Hilton Pedals.
"I Steel Without Remorse" |
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John McGlothlin
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Posted 9 Apr 2009 6:34 am
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| They are bound to be excellent guitars or else they're would not be so many people using them. |
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Rick Collins
From:
Claremont , CA USA
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Posted 9 Apr 2009 11:28 am
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The only reason I can think of for not liking the keyless guitars is:
They are ugly. I'm talking Mick Jagger/Keith Richards ugly.
But, they make a beautiful sound.  |
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Paul Redmond
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 10 Apr 2009 2:37 am
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Rick - If a steel guitar is truly viewed as a machine which must necessarily perform a given task, then you would realize the mechanical correctness of a keyless guitar over those ones with the Mickey Mouse ears for tuners and with the way-too-much extra string length over the nut which is mechanically incorrect based on the autoharp, concert harp, piano, harpsichord, hammered dulcimer, and a few others like the humle, zither, and so on. Keyless has been around for literally centuries. But the guys who "need" shiny Mickey Mouse ears out there in left field haven't been able to catch on to what the master builders of the past have generously passed down to us over the years. Have it your way. It'll still be window dressing when all is said and done...and will cause more string breakage when you least expect it.
PRR |
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Ulf Edlund
From:
UmeΓ₯, Sweden
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Posted 10 Apr 2009 3:06 am Re: Clueless Over Keyless
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| Quote: |
| ... but what are the major downsides to the key-less? What are the big pluses? |
Call me conservative, but i don't like how they look, plus the extended need for tools. It's bad as it is with a "keyed" guitar that you need tools to tune the pedals.
Spare parts? I guess it's easier to find a set of Klusons.
The only flaw i have found on the Anapegs for instance are the keyless design.
But that's just my very humble opinion.
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1983 Emmons D10 SKH, Carter SD10, Nashville 112, Session 500, ProfexII, Lapsteels, GT-Beard reso, guitars of all kinds...
http://www.myspace.com/ulfedlund |
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