A Flaw In Manufacturing Steel Guitars?

Les Anderson · From: The Great White North

I hope this is in the right forum regardless, here it is.

Since the first beginnings of manufacturing pedal steel guitars, and now non-pedal, aluminum has been the choice of metal used to get the best sound quality from the guitar. There is a tremendous flaw with this however in that the manufacturers seem to be shooting themselves in the foot with the way they attach the high grade aluminum to the guitar’s wooden cabinet.

As with any metal, the different molecules and properties in aluminum give it its different grades and characteristics. Some aluminums, such a grades, 5052, 5083 & 5086, (which are most commonly used in manufacturing steel guitars), have beautiful bell like ringing qualities when struck with another metal object. The way to get the most pronounced and sustained ringing when the aluminum piece is being struck is to assure that it is not grounded (deadened) because it’s laying on something like steel, wood or rubber. When you hang the piece of high grade aluminum off a piece of wire or a nail, it rings like a bell and the ringing frequency carries on for considerable time.

What I find very strange with steel guitar manufactures, they bolt this high grade and usually very expensive, aluminum right on to the wood; thus, killing 100% of the resonating quality and tone that the aluminum has. Some manufacturers use both glue and bolts or screws to adhere the aluminum top onto the wooden cabinet, which deadens it even more.

WHY? Why don’t they mount the aluminum on little metal pegs or something similar to isolate it from the wooden cabinet? That leaves the aluminum with its beautiful resonating, ringing sound and would liven the steel guitars tone even more.

This is just an inquisitive question from someone who has spent almost 45 years working with metals.

Les

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

How does Sierra afix their split lap steel body to the aluminum center piece?

Is their method ANY GOOD or is it a wasted effort?

Les Anderson · From: The Great White North

Ray, I just did a little research on the Sierra lap steel and it seems that they do use a proper method to get the most out of the aluminum plate. On the other hand, 99% of steel guitars have the aluminum plate affixed directly into or onto the wood cabinet.

By the way, have you had the pleasure of actually hearing the Sierra lap steel? If so, what's you opinion on it.

Dave Boothroyd · From: Staffordshire Moorlands

There is a more fundamental question to be answered first.
Do you want to hear the sound of the metal body, or the sound of the strings?
It is true that an aluminium bar will produce a bright, ringing sound when struck, and that the sustain is very good. Technically, it is not difficult to calculate the fundamental frequency and harmonics produced. There are a great many transients- that is high frequency harmonics of very short duration- that account for the initial "ching" part of the sound, but after that, the dominant harmonics are all very closely related to one single frequency.
All this explains why a wind chime tube or a tubular bell sound starts with a clang and immediately settles down into a very musical tone on one particular note.
Back to the topic of Steel guitars.
Do you really want a steel where the body sounds one note all the time?
Is it not the better idea to clamp the aluminium to a piece of wood, which has a much more complex harmonic resonance pattern, and will damp out the simple vibration of the aluminium at the same time as sustaining a much wider range of notes?
You need to think it through all thhe way. If it were easy, the people who make a living by it would have tried it hundreds of years ago and all violins would be made of bronze!
Cheers
Dave

Dave Diehl · From: Mechanicsville, MD, USA

Dave is right on. You're leaving out a very important part of the equation, the resonance of the materials. Wood is not an dampning material as explained.

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

You need to talk to the master builders before you make such a statement. The enplates of a steel guitar actually act as a transimitter of resonance when thet are attached to the wood. The wood is also a transmitter. Cast aluminum (bells are casted) is a far better material for resonance than extruded aluminum. Which is why some of the older guitars sound better.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

David Doggett · Posted 5 Apr 2009 9:14 am

I’m with Dave on this. Seems like you are possibly erroneously carrying over ideas about resonance from acoustic instruments to solid-body electric instruments. More resonance in an acoustic instrument means more volume. But that volume is gained at the expense of sustain. The far end of that line of design is the banjo, with a very loud pluck and no sustain. At the other extreme is a solid-body guitar, with great sustain, but very little acoustic volume. Basically resonance of the body or sound board absorbs energy from the strings and decreases sustain, and subtracts overtones. Also, too much flex in the body causes intonation problems as the tension on the body changes when pedals and levers are activated. The tight attachment of endplates and metal frames to the body of pedal steels seems to be to stiffen the body against this cabinet drop. Also, a heavier body is believed to improve sustain and tone, possibly by absorbing less energy from the strings. Thus, tightly attaching endplates and frames to the body bind their weight to it to improve this function.

But this is not an exact science. By trial and error Stradivari learned how to make violins with great tone. But they are still trying to figure out why and how. Pedal steel makers have likewise found things that work, although we may not know exactly why. There are exceptions and surprises. It’s generally observed that loose fittings absorb vibrational energy from the strings in undesirable ways. But tightening the hollow aluminum neck too tightly to an Emmons push/pull body deadens the tone of those instruments. And yet when Bobbe Seymour was experimenting with prototypes of the SuperPro, he has said they were surprised to find that they could take the neck completely off with no effect on tone. As I understand it, for the MSA carbon fiber Millennium, they mold the body to the shape of the endplates to get the tightest fit possible. I don’t think they consider that extra effort a design flaw. Sometimes our thought experiments don’t work out in trial and error experience.

Even if you are after resonance (which is not always a good thing), I am skeptical how much resonance you could expect from the relatively small endplate pieces, no matter what metal they are made of. Much of the unique tone of metal-body resonator guitars comes from the sound of the reflection of the acoustic sound off the metal body rather than from resonance of the metal body. As Paul Beard says, the body of a resonator guitar is like a speaker cabinet, and so needs to be solid and resonance free.

However, metal that actually contacts the strings is another matter. The type of metal used in changer fingers and roller nuts matters. On my Milly S12U the top six roller nuts are aluminum, while the bottom six seem to be steel. I’m sure this arrangement was found to be best by trial and error.

So basically, I would not be too quick to use some idea pulled out of thin air that sounds good on paper to redesign instruments that have been developed from long years of trial and error. It’s fine to think up ideas like that – but they are merely the starting place for the essential trial and error experiments that would be required to validate them, or not. Alot of those ideas may have already occurred to someone, and the trial and error may have already been done, and that's how we have the instruments we have. But keep thinking. That's how we get improvements.

James Kerr · From: Scotland, UK

As someone pointed out before in a similar posting, the answer to Tonal Perfection lies in the Rubber Feet of the Pedal Steel.

James.

Les Anderson · From: The Great White North

Whoooaaaa' reign in the daggers and spears boys and put the assault weapons back under your pillow. I think you guys read this thread the wrong way.

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

Barry Blackwood · Posted 5 Apr 2009 5:15 pm

Especially the black ones .... Shocked

Jeff Hyman · From: West Virginia, USA

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

I think that the union of aluminum, as contradictory it may seem, is mostly exactly meant to do what you seem to suggest is contradictory: To create a mix of tonal qualities which leads to a totally different result.
I however agree, that result of uniting the tonal qualities of wood and metal can not just be expected to be the sum of both separate.

What I have a much bigger issue with is the type of aluminum used in modern guitars since machining has become easier and cheaper.
Old steel guitars, starting with the first commercially produced one, the Rickenbacher Frypan, and later models which are considered tonal mile stones like the Bigby and Emmons, genreally used (sand) CAST aluminum parts for their neck and head and later also end plates.
Now, most every newer builder will prefer to used extrusion or rolled aluminum and precision machine it to intricate forms and shapes economically.
Yet, I believe that the argument can be made, that, because cast and rolled or extruded aluminum have completely different tonal characteristics, and that cast, being more brittle would be more beneficiary as a sound board material.

... J-D.

Billy Carr · From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)

I'm yet to find a "Perfect guitar". Every brand I've seen has some type of flaws somewhere. In my opinion, each player has to personalize each guitar to his/her's particular way of playing. Guitars have personalities, each one is different. It takes a little while to get that just right feel and tone/sustain. If someone posted a list of the top 5 or 10 flaws that could be found on guitars then you could locate at least one on any brand. Kinda like the cabinet drop thing. Just play it and don't worry about it. Just my .02 here!

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

To add support to what J D said, Paul Franklin Sr. said to me that, to his ears, using casted aluminum is preferable to extruded or machined aluminum.

Joe Casey · From: Weeki Wachee .Springs FL (population.9)

I guess all Steels should be recalled Laughing

Since they are flawed and won't contribute a quality sound for recordings.. Wink

Ulric Utsi-Åhlin · From: Sweden

...and the bottom line...aluminium is being used
because it has good strength-to-weight ratio.McUtsi

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

Barry Blackwood · Posted 6 Apr 2009 9:13 am

OK, I'm going to play Forum grammar patrol here for a second and say that "cast" the verb can also be used as an adjective as in "cast aluminum." "Casted" is a word I can't seem to find, at least in any of the dictionaries I've looked in so far. OK, go ahead. Laughing

Les Anderson · From: The Great White North

The word is actually die-cast. Which means the molten metal is cast into a forming mold. Another word that can be used is casting-jig or sand-cast.

Damir Besic · From: Nashville,TN.

the secret of the tone is in the sticker...if you have, let say, sticker that says Emmons Stereo, you can be sure that this guitar would sound better than, let say, many others....

Db
_________________
www.steelguitarsonline.com

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Bravo Jim Planenscar. The re-issue ZB's that I build www.retrosteelguitar.com are all made with cast aluminum just like the originals for resonance, and they are expensive. Zane Beck knew this as did Shot Jackson and as mentioned Paul Franklin Sr. I wouldn't have it any other way.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Forum Index > Steel Players	Goto page 1, 2 Next	Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic