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Topic: Lubricants revisited - clarifying some confusion |
Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 8 Mar 2009 7:56 pm |
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There's been a lot of talk about "Tri-Flow" Teflon lube, and I was recently sent a picture by someone overseas wanting to make sue it was the right product. It looked right - but wasn't.
Sherwin Williams/Krylon makes Tri-Flow...but Tri-Flow is a brand name covering a dozen or so products. The one I use and recommend is NOT the "Tri Flow Superior Lubricant" - there are two versions of it, one with Telfon, one without, but both containing wax and mineral oil...stuff you DON'T want in your guitar.
It's the Tri-Flow Dry Lubricant with PTFE (Teflon) .
http://www.globalindustrial.com/gcs/prod/30173477/i/productInfo.web?utm_source=nextag&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Cleaners/Degreas-nextag
And as I've mentioned before, I use Pedro's Extra Dry as well - a similar product.
However, I DO NOT use the oil or wax versions except around the garage. As with any oils, even the Tri-Flow mineral-oil version will eventually break down, will attract dirt, and gum things up. The Teflon+oil+wax version is better than any oil, but still not equal to the dry version.
Hope that helps clear up any confusion.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional
Last edited by Jim Sliff on 8 Mar 2009 8:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Andy Sandoval
From:
Bakersfield, California, USA
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Posted 8 Mar 2009 8:04 pm
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| Jim, where can you buy the product your recommending? |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 8 Mar 2009 8:10 pm
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Andy - as mentioned before, many high-end bike shops carry it. Some only carry the oil-type, though - that's why I posted this. Almost all of them have some sort of dry PTFE lube, though (which is how I stumbled onto Pedro's, which works great).
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Jim Bates
From:
Alvin, Texas, USA
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Posted 8 Mar 2009 8:17 pm
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The title said "lubricants", and I currently use "Blue Stuff - Valve Oil" for trumpets. Not exactly sure what it is, probably refined, deodorized kerosene. I have used this type valve or slide oil on the changers and roller nuts on all my pedal steels for ~30 years with very good results.
Any music store that carries brass and woodwinds should have something similar.
Thanx,
Jim |
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Mike Christensen
From:
Cook Minnesota
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Posted 9 Mar 2009 3:53 am
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| If you have a good gun shop close by Hoppe's #9 makes a very fine dry lube in a spray can.I'm a gun person so I always have it around. Works nicely on the steel. Happy Trails,Mike C. |
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Brick Spieth
From:
San Jose, California, USA
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Posted 9 Mar 2009 8:37 am
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| Thanks for the clarification. I have just bought but not used some of the wrong TriFlow. |
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Richard Damron
From:
Gallatin, Tennessee, USA (deceased)
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Posted 9 Mar 2009 9:33 am
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Jim Sliff -
Thanks for the post. I, too, just bought some of the "wrong" stuff and, thanks to the info you supplied, will not use it. I'd ask you to "clarify some confusion", however regarding the method by which a "dry", or powder, substance works its way into a precision mechanism such as a changer. We all should be aware that a thin oil such as typewriter lubricant will readily flow into the narrowest of openings via capillary action etc. Just how does a dry or powdery substance migrate into these same openings? Have you done any experiments showing that such a substance will thoroughly move through tight tolerances and provide complete coverage of the moving parts?
I'm definitely not trying to bust your chops or question the validity of your claim. I'm just having a bit of a time envisioning a dry substance moving to all parts of a complicated mechanism without a liquid "carrier" to facilitate the process.
If you've used this material, then torn down a changer and seen complete coverage then that's good enough for me. Please respond.
As an aside, should something like a changer be disassembled and meticulously cleaned BEFORE using this lubricant for the first time?
Respectfully,
Richard |
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Pit Lenz
From:
Cologne, Germany
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Posted 9 Mar 2009 1:00 pm
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Thank you Jim for shedding a little light!
But a research in the net still leaves a some confusion:
The one that Jim recommends has the manufactor´s (Krylon) product # TF21013. It contains PTFE and no wax and paraffin is mentioned.
The bottles have different designs, as Jim mentioned already: some , like in the link above, read "with P.F.T.E." in the small text, some others read "With Teflon" diagonally under the name tag.
But the other one with paraffin/wax, is ALSO called "Superior Dry Lubricant", as the recommended one and HAS THE SAME PRODUCT NUMBER! (TF21013). In the picture of the bottle the space where the other version reads "Teflon" seems to be blurred 
If you google "TF21013" you come across a large number of online-shops, selling and describing either the PTFE or Wax/Paraffin version. 
So maybe the Wax-sellers copypasted an outdated description 
Krylon´s own Page shows the description we´re after.
Sorry guys for the confusion!
...And the search for a distributor for Germany goes on... |
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Mike Christensen
From:
Cook Minnesota
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Posted 9 Mar 2009 2:28 pm
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| I would assume that the tri-flow is the same as the Hoppes and is sprayed out in a very light liquid that will definately run into all small openings but dries quickly (3-4 seconds) and in the case of the Hoppes leaves a dry white film.Any overspray is easily wiped off. This stuff works very well as I imagine the triflow does also.It is not messy and does not drip all over and collect dirt.I will reiterate what others have said,do not use WD-40. |
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Mike Christensen
From:
Cook Minnesota
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Posted 9 Mar 2009 2:39 pm
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| I would assume that the tri-flow is the same as the Hoppes and is sprayed out in a very light liquid that will definately run into all small openings but dries quickly (3-4 seconds) and in the case of the Hoppes leaves a dry white film.Any overspray is easily wiped off. This stuff works very well as I imagine the triflow does also.It is not messy and does not drip all over and collect dirt.I will reiterate what others have said,do not use WD-40. |
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Don Brown, Sr.
From:
New Jersey
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Posted 9 Mar 2009 7:49 pm
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Here's my take on oils.. On an engine, the crankshaft after starting, never touches the bearings. It's suppended in oil being pumped through the journels. Now! On a sewing machine, the shaft rotates many, many rpms, and does rest on the bearing surface, because there is no oil being pumped to suspend it.
So! If a sewing machine, can run for ever, using Sewing machine oil, and never, score the shaft or journels, then what more would you want on something that doesn't even Rotate but a fraction of a turn.
Folks, there's simply too much Bull-S##t going on as far as how to best lube a Pedal Steel Guitar, and turning it into some sort of a mysterious science & mystery to many. There is no mystery!
All of this oil collects this and oil collects that and this will do better than that, and this dry stuff is better than the liguid.. Outstanding and amazing.
Back when George first built my Pedal Steel, he told me he used motor oil on the finger Axle shafts. And lighter oil elsewhere.. 40 years thereafter, and the fingers have not a scratch on them, and yes! After the first 20 years, between dropping Sewing Machine oil down between the fingers maybe twice a year, I decided to pull her apart and relubed the axle shaft with a mixture of Vasoline Petroleum Jelly, and Singer Sewing Machine oil. It lasted another 20, and still shows no signs of wear on the finger bores nor on the axle shafts. And, that guitar has probably been played, more hours than what many others have, simply from being the only one I owned, from start to finish of my playing career.
This time around, I go back to straight motor oil on the finger axles, and Good Old Singer Sewing Machine oil dropped down between the fingers every now and then, as well as on the Rollor Shafts at every complete string change. The pedal shaft gets the same, Singer oil, as do all the rest of the pivot points. There isn't a thing around that won't collect dust, where dust is present! "Fact!"
Now go enjoy playing your guitars and don't worry about all the myths of dust catchers. You'll probably find out she plays like a Singer Sews, and will last you three lifetimes.  Don |
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Mike Christensen
From:
Cook Minnesota
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Posted 10 Mar 2009 3:26 am
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 Very good Don. Lets not make a real big todo about this. |
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Pit Lenz
From:
Cologne, Germany
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Posted 10 Mar 2009 3:53 am
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Hello Don,
as simple as that, you are right:
I should spend more if my "ass-time" sitting behind my steel rather than my computer.
Sometimes I run a little too far and tend to loose track...
thanks for kicking my butt while I´m sitting here again 
pit |
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Don Brown, Sr.
From:
New Jersey
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Posted 10 Mar 2009 1:34 pm
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Hi Pit,
Please don't take what I said, as having anything to do with what you (along with many others) were concerned about. I assure you, that was not the case.
The fact is, We all, want our pedal steels to be as well lubed as possible, in order for them to play well, and be as good, as humanly possible.
What I am against, is people being confused, after they've spent money on this special lube, and that lube, and then are told, it's the wrong stuff, so don't use it.
I'm quite certain Jim meant no harm, and had a genuine concern over the mixup discovery. And he wanted to pass on that information.
Use Tri-Flow, if you want! However, before using it the first time: Make certain that you FIRST, pull your steel completely apart, to clean ALL of the old lube off. If you don't, the P.T.F.E. "WILL NOT" Migrate nor lube a thing.
Fiction! "You CANNOT!" Simply wash the changer system out with "Lighter Fluid" (Naphtha), as has (on numerous occasions) been suggested to do, by squirting it down between the fingers! That will NOT work to completely clean the axle shaft and fingers, of "ALL" of the original Lube, (That Must Be Done) before using Tri-Flow.
ALL old oil must be completely and absolutely removed before using any Migrating substance to work it's way into the metals. And that my friends, can only be done by removing and cleaning the fingers and axle shafts by hand.
Otherwise, without doing that, you'll basically have a DRY changer system, and do far more harm than good.
How many players do you know who could, or would, want to first disassemble things in order to remove "ALL" of the old Oil, before going to a Migrating chemical?
Manufacturers, "may" have started using substances like that. However! Yes, that would be the time to use it.. Fresh New Parts, never before oiled. That's all well and good. That's the Precise time to start using it. But I believe at this point and time, no one "REALLY" knows how well it will hold up, in the long term result.
I have a small bottle of Tri-Flow sitting right here beside me. Will I use it? Probably on areas of less importance, simply to experiment with, to see for myself "exactly" how well it holds up, after first, washing the parts off with Carburetor Cleaner, then rinsing, and drying them off real good.
The bottom line is: If nothing is broken, then don't fix it. Plain Motor Oil, has for years on end, been the oil of choice for lubing the axle shafts, as well as the Pedal Shafts. Lighter oils, have been the lube of choice, for all the other parts.
Gummed up fingers, is NOT the result from using Oil as the Lube, it's the result that comes, from the Lack of proper maintenance, from time to time.
Sorry for it being so long, but hopefully this will allow many people to know the True facts of what's needed, and what's NOT needed in the way of lubrication.
I'll go farther, and say, with all of the concerns of, "What should I use to Lube my Steel with?"
There are so many who right at this time period, are so confused on exactly What they should or should't use to lube their steel with, that they are afraid to lube them with anything!
I'm I right or wrong?
That would be interesting, to see exactly how many people, were at the point of pure confusion, on how to best lube their pedal steels.
I don't blame them. They have money invested, love their guitar, and want to keep it working as well as it did when it left the factory.
Don |
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Don Brown, Sr.
From:
New Jersey
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Posted 10 Mar 2009 1:43 pm
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| Mike, I'm quite sure that would work as well. Works well enough on a Glock |
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Don Olson
From:
Muscatine,Ia. USA
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Posted 10 Mar 2009 5:32 pm
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I have a 1984 Zumsteel that I have always used Sewing Machine oil on and I've never had a problem.Use it and wipe off the excess and you'll never have dirt gum build up.
Don |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 16 Mar 2009 11:23 am
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First, to Don Olson - Don, unfortunately that's not correct. The oils you can't wipe up - the actual lubricating part - breaks don over time and becomes sticky. Oils simply do not last forever in a thin liquid state.
Now - Mr. Brown:
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| Now go enjoy playing your guitars and don't worry about all the myths of dust catchers. |
Don's never taken apart a Fender pulley with years of dirt/degraded oil that made it SO stiff it DID NOT TURN.
Every used steel I bought early on (some examples - a Maverick, an MSA Classic, a Shobud Pro-1 and every used Fender except one) was gunked up with oils and sticky mechanisms.
I've been in paints, coatings, solvents, lubricants and the like for 30+ years and base what I say on both technical and chemical knowledge, plus practical application as a long-time guitar tech and builder, and one of the technical management team designing and manufacturing robotics spray equipment - mostly aluminum, and with many. many moving parts. These devices make a pedal steel look like an erector set.
Respectfully - Don has opinions. Not facts - "opinions". But he takes the WAY too far:
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Fiction! "You CANNOT!" Simply wash the changer system out with "Lighter Fluid" (Naphtha), as has (on numerous occasions) been suggested to do, by squirting it down between the fingers! That will NOT work to completely clean the axle shaft and fingers, of "ALL" of the original Lube, (That Must Be Done) before using Tri-Flow.
ALL old oil must be completely and absolutely removed before using any Migrating substance to work it's way into the metals. And that my friends, can only be done by removing and cleaning the fingers and axle shafts by hand. |
Partially correct - but getting all the gunk out depends on how MUCH of it there is, and very often a good flush WILL clear it. And Don, if dirt doesn't collect, why do you insist it has to be removed?
And where do you get the notion that it can ONLY be done by hand? I have simple pressurized equipment in my garage that will blow caked gunk out of every crevice, bearing, hinge...it's incredibly easy to do.
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| This time around, I go back to straight motor oil on the finger axles, and Good Old Singer Sewing Machine oil dropped down between the fingers every now and then, as well as on the Rollor Shafts at every complete string change. The pedal shaft gets the same, Singer oil, as do all the rest of the pivot points. There isn't a thing around that won't collect dust, where dust is present! "Fact!" |
Fact based on what? Here's a simple (because you need a simple one) test - sprinkle a little dust or powder of some sort on an oiled surface. Note that some of it sticks. Sprinkle the same thing on a dry-lubed surface (after the carrier solvent/oil has evaporated - oh, gee - none of it sticks.
You can't "debunk" things you don't know anything about. But it's typical of many things here - "so and so has been using 40-weight for 50 years, so it must work".
Yawn.
Times change, and so does technology.
Don do what you want to your guitars,
But your "facts" are absolutely incorrect when stated as such. They are "opinions", and you're welcome to them.
Lots of folks have opinions based on faulty (or NO) testing, or state categorically that their personal experience with a few instruments means they're right.
What they do not have a right to do is discredit information (or those presenting it) that is based on extensive testing wide-ranging field experience inside and outside the realm of steel guitars. And following that with information that is potentially damaging to the instrument is outlandish at best.
A couple of more tidbits:
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| Probably on areas of less importance, simply to experiment with, to see for myself "exactly" how well it holds up, after first, washing the parts off with Carburetor Cleaner, then rinsing, and drying them off real good. |
"Carburetor Cleaner"??
Nivce generic term - for a group of products that contain (not each have all of these, but each has a mix of several of them):
Toluene - attacks rubber, plastic, lacquer and paint ("Mica", BTW, is steel world-slang for "Formica" - a plastic).
Ethyl Benzene - attacks plastic and rubber
Xylene - attacks lacquers, paints, rubber, and plastics and can corrode aluminum under some conditions.
Methylene Chloride - melts plastic ( a good gluing component!) and CORRODES aluminum.
Suggestion - DO NOT LET CARBURETOR CLEANER ANYWHERE NEAR YOUR GUITAR OR ANY ALUMINUM PARTS REMOVED FROM IT.
I started this thread with the sole purpose of clearing up minor confusion regarding a product, not imagining it would collapse into the spouting off of incorrect facts and recommendations of materials that could actually harm an instrument.
Please close the thread immediately before more BS is spewed by "kitchen chemists". I don't want to be in any way connected with a thread containing such counterproductive information.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Brian Herder
From:
Philadelphia, Pa. USA
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Posted 16 Mar 2009 12:27 pm
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| I have a bottle of Tri-Flow with PTFE and it doesn't say anything about wax. It is fairly thick, whitish stuff that won't flow anywhere.. i think it must have wax in it, just not on the label. I generally use some sort of Remington Teflon gun oil. |
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