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Topic: playing over minors |
Ben Jones
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 3 Mar 2009 6:49 am |
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Im playing alot of songs that are in minor keys.
I'm kind of looking for some new stuff or a new angle...im repeating myself a bit too much and Im afraid people are gonna start recognizing licks from the different song 
What I am doing now over these minors when not playing chords is playing my rock and blues scales, lots of single string. I'm also going two frets back from root and just seeing which of my stock licks work there (alot of em do). This is all working well, but as I said Im looking to maybe broaden my scope a bit.
so my questions to you good people are:
1. what kind of stuff do you play over songs in minor keys? any tips or examples would be terrific!
2. I'm playing country rock, but I was wondering if there were some good examples of country steel over country songs in minor keys?
Thanks in advance for the help and insight!
-Ben |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 3 Mar 2009 7:42 am
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One approach is to play a CMaj scale starting on the 2nd note (D) to get Dm (or Dm7)
(and, naturally, a DMaj to get Em or EMaj to get F#m -- find the major scale where the desired minor is the 2nd tone of the scale)
If you play D E F G A B C D it is a Dm scale
All positions where you have found major scales will now have minor scales as well.
Look for chords. There are many ways to get minor chords. A pedal = C#m open; A+B = F#m open -- root on 1 and 7 -- also B+C lets you pull the b7(E) up to the root(F#); E to D# lever gives you G#m. Find single note pockets and harmonized scale patterns around those positions.
There aren't many country songs in minor keys (Jolene and a few others come to mind -- Ghost Riders, etc.) but many, if not MOST, country songs include minor chords. Usually 2m and 6m.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12 |
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Fred Glave
From:
McHenry, Illinois, USA
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Posted 3 Mar 2009 2:02 pm
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Use the inversions of the chords, much the same way you do for playing in major keys. Use combinations of single notes and diads in various ascending and descending patterns. Sometimes it's best to sit down and figure out a specific solo that you use for each song ahead of time. That will keep things unique. If the song is a cover song that has been recorded, try to play the solo used on the recording. Jamming out on solos and fills is fun, but sometimes you can feel like you're getting into a rut.
_________________
Zum Encore, Zum Stage One, Fender 2000, Harlan Bros., Multi-Kord, |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 3 Mar 2009 2:30 pm
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Larry Bell said:
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| If you play D E F G A B C D it is a Dm scale |
Larry, wouldn't a Dm scale have a Bb? Those are the notes of an Am scale, aren't they?
Lee |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Ken Pippus
From:
Langford, BC, Canada
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Posted 3 Mar 2009 3:35 pm
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As Jim Cohen obviously knows, the "D Minor" scale without the Bb is the Dorian Mode, which works, not surprisingly, over IIm chords, like the Dm7 in C major. D Aeolian mode has a Bb, and it's natural environment is over a VIm chord, like Dm in F major. Either can be used in all sorts of other places, if they give the effect you're after.
I got your front, Larry.
KP |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 3 Mar 2009 5:51 pm
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Thanks Ken
That's exactly right. As the relative minor of F, the Dm scale includes Bb. However, as Ken pointed out, the Dorian is often used for improv, esp in ii V I progressions.
To get the scale Lee refers to, which is more properly a Dminor scale (natural or pure minor), start an FMaj scale on the sixth tone
D E F G A Bb C D
This obviously works better over a relative minor when the band is playing in the key of F.
I won't even get into harmonic and melodic minors. He's talking about playing over minor changes in country or country rock tunes, fer cryin' out loud.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12 |
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John Steele
From:
Renfrew, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 3 Mar 2009 6:20 pm
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But if you use the Dorian mode as Larry explained, you get the natural sixth - in a Dm chord, the B note.
And the Dm6 is the scariest of all minor chords.
-John |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 3 Mar 2009 7:06 pm
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Ben Jones
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 3 Mar 2009 7:31 pm
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I forgot to mention...Im not good with theory.
I can grasp only the simplest of concepts. even scale degree ...you start to lose me. But I did learn about relative minors once and a freind has reminded me about em. I think theres some answers there. |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 3 Mar 2009 8:31 pm
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Somewhere the original question has got misinterpreted, the question was related to minor KEYS not minor chords.
Some simplified rules for playing in a minor key
So here's my tuppence worth(5 cents)
For starters NEVER play a natural 9th on the 5 or dominant seventh chord, it must be a flat 9. Likewise never play the major seventh note of the dominant seventh chord it MUST be the flat seventh.
Try playing in the position of the relative major and incorporate your chromatic strings (1st and 2nd strings)
The run over the dominant seventh chord can be substituted with a diminished run or scale (using the seventh or flat ninth as the locator.
the sub dominant chord is almost always a minor and the 2 chord is almost always a seventh.
Also bear in mind that in a given key, the tonic or root, as a minor seventh does NOT play the same role as the 1 seventh in a major key. It's usually a passing mode to the root chord as a minor sixth, and is often preceded by the root position minor chord with a major seventh top note.
Often there is a modulation in minor keys to the relative major and it's dominant seventh chord resolved frequently by a transition to the dominant of the minor key with a leading 3 note on the melody or most often played by the bass.
Study a few tangos and check out the accordion fills, they are usually the most fitting in minor keys.
At least that would be my view of playing in minor keys. Maybe not a lot of help but it's my slant on it !
_________________
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Jim Robbins
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 3 Mar 2009 8:35 pm
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There's a few different strategies -- what works on some minors doesn't work on others. Basically, if you are playing minors that are diatonic in the major key you are in (ii, iii, vi aka 2m, 3m, 6m) you can play the notes of the scale of the key you are in, trying to land on notes of the chord you want to play, and it will sound ok. So if you are in key of C, and you have to play a Dm, play a C maj scale but orient your line towards notes in the Dm chord. In the same key, if you have to play an Em - same thing, play a C maj scale, orient your line towards an Em (and avoid playing the note C). Similarly Am in key of C - that's your relative minor.
If you are playing minors that are chromatically altered (most typically iv aka 4m, as in the Beatlesque progression IV - iv - I aka 4 - 4m - 1) or if you are playing in a minor key (like Ghostriders) you take a slightly different approach. You have to avoid that major 3 over the root, but everything else is pretty much up for grabs.
A couple tricks (actually 3):
1) Play a stock lick 3 frets up from where you would play it. So you want to play a Cm, play what you would play with your A& B pedals at the 3rd fret but slide it up to the 6th fret. Or play what you might play at the 8th fret but slide it up to the 11th.
2) Play passing notes 1 fret below the note of your minor chord, sliding up into the chord note. So again if you are playing a Cm for example on the 4th fret with your E lower knee lever, just slide up into the 4th fret chord notes from notes on the 3rd fret. Pardon my lack of tab but e.g., keep E lower at all times and play 4th fret, 8 string, 3rd fret 6th string, 4th fret 6th string, 3rd fret 5th string 4th fret 5th string etc going up. That gives you some nice chromaticism that can spice up approach #1.
3) Avoid the B pedal on your minor chords but play around with the other pedals in any of the inversions in the standard grip.
I'll never forget when some minors gave me a big wad of chewing tobacco during a break and I had to play a whole set with it in my mouth because I couldn't spit it out on stage -- no wait, those were miners. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 3 Mar 2009 9:09 pm
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I think the biggest "trick" in minor keys is when you realize that the scale changes on the V7 chord. For example when you're in A minor you play pretty much in the C, D and G positions over most of the chords. But when it goes to the E7, you want to temporarily "switch keys", almost as though you were in A major on the V7 chord.
The V7 chord in minor keys switches to a different set of positions. That's what makes minor progressions sound so cool.
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 3 Mar 2009 9:12 pm
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One of my favorite examples of playing over minors is Jon Anderson's tune Seminol Wind. Buddy Emmons plays perfect and beautiful on that tune.
For something different try using your 10th string as your root. With the B pedal in and your 2nd string powered a half tone you have a nice minor scale right there straight across the strings. So Dm would be at your 3rd fret. Its a nice sound. I use it for chords quite a bit.
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Bob |
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Ben Jones
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 4 Mar 2009 6:49 am
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| b0b wrote: |
I think the biggest "trick" in minor keys is when you realize that the scale changes on the V7 chord. For example when you're in A minor you play pretty much in the C, D and G positions over most of the chords. But when it goes to the E7, you want to temporarily "switch keys", almost as though you were in A major on the V7 chord.
The V7 chord in minor keys switches to a different set of positions. That's what makes minor progressions sound so cool. |
a dim bulb is flickering in my head. I think this explains why some V chords seemed to appear in weird spots for me when playing vamps, chuck berry style rockers, and swingy stuff with the E lower engaged?
again my apologies for being so poor with theory. I'm attracted to bObs response the most because i can understand it better than some of the more techincal responses. all good tho, I can only learn more, and much thanks.
The song that prompted my querry is an original driving neil young style rocker. The chord progression is: Am, Em, G. The key appears to be Am. The steel's basically playing rock fill licks during the verses and chords/licks for the chorus (which is the same progression). Im going to try some of the suggested different chord inversions above, so thanks for those!
Heres how i understand it thus far:
song is in Am. Am is relative minor for C. so...I can play in the no pedals and pedal down positions for the key of C major. (I guess I could also play in the AF position? but Im not real fluent there yet.) So i can rock at frets 3 and 8 using some of the same things that work in major keys. My "blues boxes"(forgive me blues purists) start at root no pedals and move up and down, so in this case i can start at fret 5 and work up and down. so to sum it up. I can rock at frets 3, 5, and 8 and their corresponding octaves.
Thats not too bad, thats most the neck if not all of it. progress.
bOb, why can I also play in the D position?
unlike country songs, the licks or soloing doesnt really follow the chord progression in rock on guitar. you can pretty much shred away in one spot over all the changes. since this is a rock song, I dont see why it should be different for the steel.
Is it?
thanks again everyone, very helpful! |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 4 Mar 2009 7:37 am
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| Now what about C6 tuning ? |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 4 Mar 2009 8:47 am
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| Quote: |
| The chord progression is: Am, Em, G |
| Quote: |
| why can I also play in the D position? |
10th fret Em = ab pedals down strings 10 8 7 6 5 4 3 1
10th fret Am= 10 9 7 6(b) 5 3(b) 2(L 1/2) 1
The whole song could be played on the 10th fret using only the AB pedals and the 2nd string half step lower.
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Bob |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 4 Mar 2009 9:48 am
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| Ben Jones wrote: |
| bOb, why can I also play in the D position? |
Because D is sometimes the IV chord of Am. It's not always i iv V7. Sometimes it is i IV V7. And even if it is Dm, if you avoid the 3rd at the D position (F#), you can use all the other notes of the D scale but C#. So from the A pedal minor i position, you can move up two frets to the IV and two more to the V.
For the iv from the A pedal minor position, you can stay at the same fret and hit the BC pedals. You may have to be quick, but it's a great sound. I raise string 8 a whole tone on the C pedal, so it pulls too. I really like that sound of all the strings pulling. Or you can drop down two frets and hit the E lower lever. Mine also lowers string 2 a whole step, which gives you a useful minor scale note on that string.
To go from the A pedal minor position to V you can drop down one fret and add the B pedal. I raise strings 1 and 9 a half step on LKV. So as I add the B pedal I can raise my knee and make it a V7. Down two more frets if IV or IV7.
There are a lot of chords within a few frets of the A pedal minor position. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 4 Mar 2009 10:04 am
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This mode is common in rock music. The song is in Am, but it's a G scale (not C). That's why the D positions work.
I don't know the technical name for it, but there are two different minor modes. As DD pointed out, in some songs the IV chord is a minor and in others it's a major. That one note (F vs F# in the key of A minor) is the difference.
The same pentatonic (5-note) scale works against both of them: A C D E G. A lot of your "basic rock" guitar players use this scale, so they don't even notice the subtle difference between the popular minor modes.
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Rick Winfield
From:
Pickin' beneath the Palmettos
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Posted 4 Mar 2009 10:42 am gambale
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As per jazz improvisor Frank Gambale:
soloing over minor 7th (dorian) in any key:
Scale = dorian
pent/blues scales = root up whole step, & up 5th
arps = maj7 up min 3rd & up 5th
Triads = all diationics, especially major triads which are down whole step, up min 3rd, up 4th
Intervals= diatonic 3rds, 4th, 5ths
i.e. soloing over G min 7
Scale = G dorian
Pent/blues = D minor pentatonic, & D minor blues
Arp= Bb Maj 7
Triad = F maj
intervals = 4ths diatonic to G dorian (G_C, A_D, Bb-E)
lots to think about, even more to use and perfect
Rick |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 4 Mar 2009 11:24 am
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"Seminole Wind" is indeed a great example. Another is "Midnight in Montgomery" with (I believe) Paul Franklin on pedal steel, who plays beautifully restrained and lyrical figures in exactly the right places.
I work with a singer-songwriter that writes a lot of minor-key tunes, and a lot of them slow and dark. To me, playing slow minor-key tunes often likes a certain level of tension and atmospherics to fit the minor mood. I don't generally think about scale patterns at all on this type of thing.
Even though I don't usually play a lot of linear scale patterns directly, I think it's very useful to have a good intuitive feel for how the various scale and modal note choices sound over different chords, progressions, and other notes and figures. The "Big 4" modal patterns for me are Ionian (regular major scale) mode, Mixolydian (same as Ionian but with the major 7th note flatted to b7) mode, Aeolian (regular minor scale) mode, and the Dorian (same as Aeolian but with the b6 note sharped to a major 6th). There are lots of other altered scales, but those 4 cover a lot of ground and I tend to view things as altered versions of one of those.
As b0b notes, if you pentatonicize (is that a word?) those two minor modes, you just get the regular "blues-like" minor pentatonic. If you pentatonicize those two major modes, you'll get two different major pentatonic scales, one with the maj7 and the other with the b7. Those can be useful note choices in their own right. But to me, the interesting part is to mess around with the pitch in the region between the b3 and 3, 5b and 5, and b7 and maj7.
I think the major V is more common, but I do hear minor-key tunes where the 5 chord is either outright minor or ambiguous. Two that come to mind are by Albert King - "As the Years Go Passing By" and "Cadillac Assembly Line". I've heard Albert do it minor on one verse, and then major on another, or make it completely ambiguous by omitting the 3rd entirely or mashing it between the two. Here's two versions that are completely mixed up (and you can hear the sidemen clashing in spots), but I've done them both using either the major or minor 5 chords, and they sound just fine either way, to me. Enforcing the minor 5 makes a tune like this relentlessly dark to my ears.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3n76IoHOrQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQO-vYNdQRQ
I probably pay more attention to very melody-oriented instruments like horns or violin for melodic ideas than, let's say, guitar or steel. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 4 Mar 2009 11:28 am
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Compare.
Black Magic Woman by Santana: in E minor it would be Em Am Bm - fits to a G scale.
Down By The River by Neil Young: uses Em A in verse and solo for minor mode, D A G in major chorus - fits to a D scale.
In both cases your shredding guitarist would play the same 5-note scale: E G A B D.
An advanced player might play C notes in Santana's tune (on the Am chord) vs. C# notes in Neil's (on the A chord).
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Ben Jones
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 4 Mar 2009 11:39 am
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I feel bad for the second guitarist in that first clip, he had to solo after Albert and the comparison wasnt flattering .
Okay, LOTs of good stuff for me to think about.
If I grasp even a small portion of it, I will be n much better shape. Thanks all!
bOb-that comparison helped me understand, especially since i know those tunes. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 4 Mar 2009 12:14 pm
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Ben,
I mostly use 3 positions for those pentatonic "shredding" solos in E minor (or E7th):
3rd fret: 2nd & 9th strings lowered to C#, bouncing on the first pedal. Root E is on the 5th and 10th strings with pedal down, and on the 2nd and 9th strings with the lever engaged.
8th fret: 4th & 8th strings lowered to D#, 2nd & 9th strings lowered to C#, bouncing on the first pedal. Root E is on the 3rd and 6th strings.
10th fret: 9th string lowered to C#, use B+C pedals. Root E is on the 1st and 7th strings, and on the 4th string with the C pedal down.
3rd fret position repeats at 15th fret.
I step out of those positions when I need to follow the chords more closely.
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