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Topic: Supro Replacement Pickups |
Bruce Freisinger
From:
New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 9 Feb 2009 4:01 pm |
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Hi folks... I know that Rick Aiello creates some great new magnets for Supro lap pickups, but I think I have a problem with the entire assembly - basically, I get okay sound out of strings 4, 5 and 6, but almost no output from strings 1, 2 and 3. I've already purchased upgraded magnets from Rick and I'm not able to hear the difference they should make because of this problem. I'm at a loss. I have this great red/white 1955 Supro Supreme that has so much potential, but I can't do a danged thing with it. It sits in its little lacquered tweed case quiet and I'm perpetually bummed. I really wish I could send the entire pickup/pot/pickguard assembly to someone to make it all better. 
Any ideas?
TIA
-Bruce |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Jim Newberry
From:
Seattle, Upper Left America
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Posted 12 Feb 2009 4:50 pm
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If you got NiBro magnets from Rick and you can't hear the difference due to another problem... now, that's tragic. I haven't picked up my Chicagoan for a couple of weeks, but I think the notes are still sustaining from last time I played it. I hope you can get the pickup fixed. Those new magnets will put a big ol' smile on your face.
_________________
"The Masher of Touch and Tone"
-1950 Fender Dual Pro 8
-1950's Fender Dual Pro 6
-Clinesmith D8
-Clinesmith 8-string Frypan
-Clinesmith Joaquin
-~1940 National New Yorker
-~1936 Rickenbacher B6
-Homebuilt Amps |
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Rick Alexander
From:
Florida, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 12 Feb 2009 6:00 pm
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There are 2 coils in a string-through pickup - one for strings 1, 2 & 3 and one for strings 4, 5 & 6.
It sounds like the top one has an open circuit.
Rick's right (as usual) - it probably needs to be rewound, and Jason Lollar is undoubtedly the best.
And like Jim said, Rick's NIBro magnets are awesome!
Just as a point of interest - my long time guitar tech Tater rigged a pickup winder out of an old hard drive and can opener (or something equally rube goldberg). He has successfully rewound pickups for me - including a Supro Supreme, an early 6 coil National string-through and a 35 Ricky B6.
Here are some pics and a short video of his amazing machine:
http://rickalexander.com/Tater
_________________
BIG STEEL |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 12 Feb 2009 6:18 pm
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Actually ... I heard Jason just finished a prototype "Supro String Thru" ...
Give him a holler ... if you need a completely new unit ... |
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Mike Bonnice
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 12 Feb 2009 10:20 pm
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The two pickups are electrically in series, so if there is an open circuit, all six strings will be dead (unless someone re-wired the pickups to be in parallel?). However, if there is a short to ground between the two pickups, this might exhibit the behavior you describe, and re-winding would not be necessary.
This is quite possible because the wire that connects the two pickups could rub through the tape that isolates it from the metal parts.
I don't remember if that connecting wire is at the top of the pickups or the bottom, but the idea is to identify it, move it away from metal, then try to play.
It's a delicate operation, but you could remove the sheet metal shield over the pickups (don't bend the retaining tabs too much or they'll break) then maybe slip a thin piece of paper or something between and under the pickups. The pickups might stick to the sheet metal cover or to the base plate (because of glue and tape in the original assembly), so don't pull hard or you'll definitely break a connection. If they are stuck, gently separate the pickup from the cover with something thin.
Mike |
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Denny Turner
From:
Oahu, Hawaii USA
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Posted 15 Feb 2009 5:29 am
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I encountered a similar problem repairing a Valco steel for a Customer (one weak coil with one pole on that coil even weaker) ....in a "rat nest" of previous repairs and wrong wiring. The Customer was a beginner, so via webpages I provided him with a detailed inspection report and ongoing reports of work he requested done prior to him receiving and refinishing the steel; So that techs in the future could make sense of his Steel that the Customer might not be able to explain. Perplexing was that both coils read a correct 2.5K with the pickup disassembled. I eventually found that one of the pole piece screws threads had worn through the coil assembly's thin plastic tube protecting the coil from the pole piece screw, which shorted out part of that coil to ground through the screw, ...(no short with the screw not in place, thus the aforesaid normal ohms readings mystery with the coil / bobbin assembly removed  ) ....and there were several other places that were just about to wear through. So I made new pole holes liner inserts from a plastic drinking straw and glued them in with Franklin's white glue. Problem solved. Here are pictures and info about that repair along with comprehensive pictures of the guts of a Valco bunker pickup:
http://www.dennysguitars.com/ValcoElGrande17.html
The webpages pics also show the black tape coil leads insulation that Mike is referring to.
There are also schematics of the Valco pickup and wiring in the webpages report; But NOTICE that I provided him both the schematic of the wrong wiring AND schematics of the correct wiring. Also notice that the wiring color codes are what was in the Valco and most likely not the factory color codes (I didn't want to disturb / break wires close to the very delicate coil leads and/or their solder points).
Hope this might somehow help.
_________________
Aloha,
Denny T~
http://www.dennysguitars.com/
Please help support humanity:
http://www.redcross.org/en/aboutus
Last edited by Denny Turner on 20 Feb 2009 5:01 am; edited 4 times in total |
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Bruce Freisinger
From:
New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 18 Feb 2009 7:19 am
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| Thanks everyone! I'll be checking in with Jason ASAP! Also, Denny... That page you linked is just great. I was trying to find a wiring diagram for these things (I'm a beginner steel player, long-time guitarist, otherwise) to verify the wiring was correct. You rock!! |
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Rick Alexander
From:
Florida, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 18 Feb 2009 8:05 am
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Denny - awesome diagrams and pictorial!
By far the best I've seen.
Kudos bro . .
_________________
BIG STEEL |
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Peter Jacobs
From:
Northern Virginia
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Posted 18 Feb 2009 9:34 am
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I've often wondered why no one has made a copy of the Valco string-through pickup (outside of the ridiculously small market for it  ). The sound would be amazing, and people wouldn't be parting out old Valcos and Supros.
If Jason is planning to make one, I see a renaissance in the offing...
_________________
Peter
---------
www.splinterville.com
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@splinterville6278/videos |
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Denny Turner
From:
Oahu, Hawaii USA
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Posted 18 Feb 2009 1:16 pm
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| Rick Alexander wrote: |
| ....Tater rigged a pickup winder.... |
Rick,
Great shots of Tater's work on yer site.
How does Tater regulate the coil-wire tension and lateral spooling; By hand?
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And Thanks for the kind words guys; But after doing this kinda stuff for 50 years, it's kinda like fallin' out of dee 'ol perogue in dee critters' bayou ........do it enuff times 'an I spose ya better get some good at it. 
_________________
Aloha,
Denny T~
http://www.dennysguitars.com/
Please help support humanity:
http://www.redcross.org/en/aboutus
Last edited by Denny Turner on 18 Feb 2009 5:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 18 Feb 2009 1:55 pm
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| Peter Jacobs wrote: |
| If Jason is planning to make one, I see a renaissance in the offing... |
Here's his prototype ...
Denny ... glad you got that unit fixed up  |
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Peter Jacobs
From:
Northern Virginia
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Denny Turner
From:
Oahu, Hawaii USA
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Posted 18 Feb 2009 6:41 pm
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| Rick Aiello wrote: |
| Denny ... glad you got that unit fixed up |
Well, if you hadn't confirmed my suspicions and provided the original wiring sketch; I would'a had to destring and open up 3 or more Valco's to find & confirm the correct factory wiring; So you sure saved me allot of work and time; Thanks again.
But even after getting it wired correctly and it still had a ghost short, I was considering turning it into a "skateboard", "stickball bat" or sump'n about the time I looked down into them tubes with a light and magnifying glass! Murphy lurks in some of the strangest places 
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With that stop bridge and NiBro's on Jason's chopper, he must be reaching for tone and sustain to the moon and back!
_________________
Aloha,
Denny T~
http://www.dennysguitars.com/
Please help support humanity:
http://www.redcross.org/en/aboutus |
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Colin Alder
From:
Santa Cruz, California, USA
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Posted 19 Feb 2009 9:02 pm
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| Quote: |
| A light wiping of forehead oil onto the end of the small artist brush handle gives it just the right amount of "mold release" as it holds the tube inserts outward while the glue sets |
As usual, Denny has given a master class here, illustrated and narrated with detail, humor and technical clarity. And it flows like water in a mountain stream.
I once asked him how to rejuvenate tuner buttons on an Iolana and I got back a 5 page email of detailed instructions.
I think I'm gonna ask him how to fashion a crown for the tooth I just had root canaled being as money's a little tight around here.
What a guy.  |
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Peter Jacobs
From:
Northern Virginia
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Rick Alexander
From:
Florida, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 20 Feb 2009 6:32 am
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| Quote: |
| How does Tater regulate the coil-wire tension and lateral spooling; By hand? |
Denny, I'm not exactly sure how he does that.
I'll ask him next time I see him and get back to you. |
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Rick Alexander
From:
Florida, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 21 Feb 2009 12:24 pm att Denny!
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Denny, I talked to Tater today and asked him how he regulates the lateral spooling and tension.
And, yes - basically by hand.
He uses a small piece of cloth to run the wire through so it doesn't get people juice all over it. |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 21 Feb 2009 4:03 pm
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"With that stop bridge and NiBro's on Jason's chopper, he must be reaching for tone and sustain to the moon and back! "
Wonder if it's actually some sorta "Cooder-Caster?" |
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Jason Lollar
From:
Seattle area
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Posted 21 Feb 2009 4:47 pm
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Long time no see- i havent posted here for years- hi Rick A!
These will be ready in about 4 or 5 weeks. I am making a short run of them and am waiting on getting the parts plated rather than plating that part myself- pro platers can do better job of it than I can.
That pickup is scabbed onto an epiphone les paul junior- one of those $99 dollar jobs I use as a test bed. That pickup design is amazing, abundant output and clarity at the same time, lots of dynamic range and sustain. This pickup is built without the bridge being part of the assembly unlike the originals where the bridge is part of the pickup so you can mount mine on anything. Everything else is the same size as the originals so the string spacing is a bit wide for Gibson electric guitars. For those guitars you have to angle the pickup in order for the poles to line up with the strings but it works fine.
After working on many of these pickups over the years I found that the magnets they used were very inconsistant in strength- some are similar to alnico 5 and some are more like alni 3 which is very weak. I had my magnets made to alnico 5 specs which is very important for this pickup design! Another thing alnico does is it changes the inductance of the assembled pickup which ceramic doesnt.
I can imagine what putting Rick A's magnets into an average original pickup like this would do- the difference wound be quite dramatic! I would like to be there when someone hears the difference, it would be fun to see the reaction. You could never approach that kind of performance even by fully charging that type of original weak magnet- its not even close.
Anyway one tip I have as a solution that I have seen happen many times with this type of pickup. If you are getting a weak signal every other string or in some odd pattern other than one set of three being weak and the other being strong then you probably have one magnet upside down. I have had many calls where people thought they needed a rewind but it turned out all they needed to do was flip one magnet over- this has happened over and over.
Of course everyone knows now that sometimes one magnet is fake- what i am putting forth is if you have the magnets out of polarity with each other youll get volume cancellation on some of the strings. |
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Rick Alexander
From:
Florida, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 21 Feb 2009 6:09 pm
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Jason, I've replaced old mags with Aiello NIBros and made that comparison on several occasions.
And the difference is very dramatic.
It's always an uplifting experience . .
His remags certainly make a definite improvement to the old tired mags, but nothing like the NIBros. |
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Malcolm Graham
From:
Essex, UK
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Posted 24 Feb 2009 11:16 am Hi - My first post!
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Firstly, may I say hello to you all from a relative lap steel novice!
Secondly, a big thank you for all the fascinating information and comments on the forum.
The reason I have joined is that I found the forum so helpful in my search for a replacement SUPRO lap steel pick-up and a load of other info on my new found hobby.
I want to build a "coodery typa caster" and I did not want to butcher my old Supro for the pick-up.
Lo and behold all the info was here and RickA mentioned enough for me to get in touch with Mr.Lollar who in turn was extremely helpful in supplying info and photos of his prototype.
I now await JL to let me know that the beastie is in production so I can go ahead and buy one.
The guitar planning stage is nearly complete, other bits and bobs are specced and sources identified - I've now got to pluck up courage to start routing wood - wish me luck, please!
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Bruce Freisinger
From:
New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 6 Mar 2009 8:25 am
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| Jason Lollar wrote: |
Long time no see- i havent posted here for years- hi Rick A!
These will be ready in about 4 or 5 weeks. |
Just let me know when they're ready and I'll happily be your first buyer. woohoo! |
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Malcolm Graham
From:
Essex, UK
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Posted 6 Mar 2009 11:25 am
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Hang on Bruce - I want to be the first buyer....please?  |
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Mike D
From:
Phx, Az
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Posted 6 Mar 2009 2:44 pm
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Arghhh, more stuff to spend munny on! 
But, more guitars to make to put them in! |
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