| Author |
Topic: 1st all pull builder ? |
Billy Carr
From:
Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)
|
Posted 31 Jan 2009 2:34 pm |
|
| Which PSG builder actually produced the first all pull changer? I'm guessing MSA or Fender? |
|
|
 |
Pat Comeau
From:
New Brunswick, Canada
|
|
|
|
Paul Norman
From:
Washington, North Carolina, USA
|
Posted 31 Jan 2009 2:45 pm
|
|
I thought Sho-Bud was the all-pulls. The reason
Emmons started his own guitar was push-pull.
Am I wrong? |
|
|
|
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
|
Posted 31 Jan 2009 3:29 pm
|
|
| All guitars, except for the Emmons (push/pull), and a couple like the Marlen (pull/release) models, can be considered "all-pull" guitars. Even the Multi-Kord (the first pedal steel, originally made in the '30s) can be considered an all-pull guitar. |
|
|
|
T. C. Furlong
From:
Lake County, Illinois, USA
|
Posted 3 Feb 2009 6:33 am
|
|
When I think of all-pull, I think of a raise and a lower each being actuated by pulling away from the changer. I don't think a Multi-Kord did lowers. Did it? To the best of my knowledge, the first scissor finger changer was invented and brought to production by David Jackson at Sho-Bud in the sixties.
TC |
|
|
|
Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
|
Posted 3 Feb 2009 10:00 am
|
|
If I remember right, a MultiKord did do lowers. It had two levers for each string, one for a raise and one for a lower.
Also, as far as the MSA or Fender being all pull, Fender cable models like the 400 and 1000 pre dated the MSA steel by a few years......JH in Va.
_________________
Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!! |
|
|
|
Rick Collins
From:
Claremont , CA USA
|
Posted 3 Feb 2009 10:13 am
|
|
| Somewhere, I saw a very old Sho-Bud without end-plates; and I believe it had a push-type lowering pedal or lever. |
|
|
|
chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
|
Posted 3 Feb 2009 10:15 am
|
|
| I have a '54 Bigsby that's all pull. |
|
|
|
Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
|
Posted 3 Feb 2009 10:27 am
|
|
I am with Chas -- There is room behind Bigsby changer for pulls -- rather than releases --to lower. I have one set up that way.
You could also have pulls at the pivoting tuning keys. |
|
|
|
Randy Gilliam
From:
San Antonio, Texas, USA
|
Posted 3 Feb 2009 10:16 pm Blanton
|
|
Jerry Blanton Built His In the Early 60S. Randy Gilliam  |
|
|
|
John Fabian
From:
Mesquite, Texas USA * R.I.P.
|
Posted 4 Feb 2009 8:01 am
|
|
| T. C. Furlong wrote: |
To the best of my knowledge, the first scissor finger changer was invented and brought to
production by David Jackson at Sho-Bud in the sixties.
TC |
Not so.
This is from Bud's SGHOF nomination submitted by Tom
Bradshaw.
| Quote: |
Showing a passion for this work, Bud began to experiment, leading to significant innovations. In 1972, MSA
introduced their "Classic" model pedal steels. Those instruments were equipped with what has become acknowledged
as "The Carter Changer." This state-of-the-art design "chord changer" (yes, that is the true name) had accuracy
and the ease of attachment theretofore not incorporated on any other brand. With that changer, the steel guitar
moved from a crude, or at least a less-than-satisfactory, machine to one with phenomenal precision. Its capacity
for delivering an in-tune sound had finally been achieved!
Bud had actually begun working on this design in 1965. At that time he came up with an all-pull changer that
employed independent raising and lowering fingers. It appeared on a few earlier MSA guitars. It too was a
double-changer (similar to the one MSA used), and was installed on the "Texan" brand of steels offered by
builder, Willis Durham.
It was a three-piece unit, incorporating the capability of tunable double-raise and tunable double-lower string
changes. Interestingly, Bud's initial design was debunked by many of his fellow workers, but undeterred, Bud
quietly installed it on an S-12 MSA guitar for his own personal
field-testing. The results convinced Bud that his design was a good one.
When MSA aligned itself with the Micro Company in 1972, Bud again offered his changer design for consideration.
He received support from the engineers at Micro, and the changer was incorporated into the "Classic" models that
the new MSA Micro firm introduced shortly thereafter. Its design quickly became the industry standard. Bud would
later (1976) expand his design to provide triple-raise and triple-lower capability. |
This is from the "unofficial Sho~Bud" web site
http://www.planet.eon.net/~gsimmons/shobud/models.html
| Quote: |
4) THE PROFESSIONAL
Around 1970, Sho-Bud introduced the Professional model of pedal steel. The same basic undercarriage design using
the small metal baskets on the Baldwin Crossover was used on the Professional model. The Professional was also
very similar to the Crossover except having the metal frame and crossover removed. The Professional had a
wonderful rich and warm tone. The Professional production era was from 1970 to 1973, and the suggested price at
this time was $1450.
5) THE PRO SERIES
Sho-Bud introduced the Pro Series in late 1973 with the Pro-II. |
This time line as well as the patent filing dates on patents 3407697 (1966), 3688631 (1968), 4080864 (1976)
demonstrate Sho~Bud introduced scissors more than 4 years after Bud first started using the design at MSA
(pre-MSA Micro).
I believe you will find that MultiKord and Fender were the first to use a scissors-style changer. However, they
didn't resemble or work the way the scissors most all the manufacturers use now do. |
|
|
|
Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
|
Posted 4 Feb 2009 8:55 am
|
|
What were the changers on Sho-Buds prior to 1970? I've never seen the mechanism of a Sho-Bud of that vintage.
Don't know the accuracy of this, but in the "Unofficial Sho-Bud Website" John cited, it says:
| Quote: |
2) THE FINGERTIP
Around 1963, production started on the Sho-Bud Fingertip. This model was unique because unlike the Permanent, it was possible to change the pedal setup. It was nicknamed the Universal for this reason, and was basically the start of the all-pull undercarriage system. |
(emphasis added)
Last edited by Brint Hannay on 4 Feb 2009 10:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
John Fabian
From:
Mesquite, Texas USA * R.I.P.
|
Posted 4 Feb 2009 9:05 am
|
|
| Brint Hannay wrote: |
| What were the changers on Sho-Buds prior to 1970? I've never seen the mechanism of a Sho-Bud of that vintage. |
Check out the patent drawings I cited. |
|
|
|
Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
|
Posted 4 Feb 2009 10:20 am
|
|
Unfortunately, I don't seem to be able to view the patent drawings, either in Firefox or IE. I don't understand why. In Firefox the Patent Office website says I need an additional plug-in, namely Quicktime, which I already have!
But what about the statement I quoted above? Is it incorrect?
And I'm not clear on whether the question of who made the first "scissor-type" changer is a distinct question from who made the first "all-pull" changer. Are "all-pull" and "scissor-type" essentially synonymous, or is there any other type of all-pull changer? |
|
|
|
John Fabian
From:
Mesquite, Texas USA * R.I.P.
|
Posted 4 Feb 2009 10:59 am
|
|
Brint,
All pull systems do not necessarily use scissors style changers.
T.C. Furlong's statement and my response was about the first scissor all pull system.
That scissor changer system became the basis of the changers currently used throughout the industry and instrument as we know them today.
Try Google patents instead. |
|
|
|
chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
|
Posted 4 Feb 2009 3:35 pm
|
|
| Quote: |
| What were the changers on Sho-Buds prior to 1970? I've never seen the mechanism of a Sho-Bud of that vintage. |
This is a Permanent changer, circa 1964. You might notice that it has 11 fingers. It's from an 11-11-16 that supposedly was built for Bobby Garrett and it's the next guitar I'm going to restore.
 |
|
|
|
Mark Durante
From:
St. Pete Beach FL
|
Posted 4 Feb 2009 3:40 pm
|
|
Here's the Sho-Bud fingertip scissor fingers mid 60's
Last edited by Mark Durante on 4 Feb 2009 4:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
|
Posted 4 Feb 2009 4:12 pm
|
|
This is a Bigsby "scissors" finger:
And this is the finger, in the changers, of Norm Hamlet's '54 Bigsby:
 |
|
|
|
Mark Durante
From:
St. Pete Beach FL
|
Posted 4 Feb 2009 4:34 pm
|
|
Another Shot,
 so to speak |
|
|
|
chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
|
Posted 4 Feb 2009 4:52 pm
|
|
While we're at it, here's a finger from a "bird cage" changer, circa 1970, and in my not so humble and very opinionated opinion, perhaps the best sounding changer Sho-Bud made:
 |
|
|
|
John Fabian
From:
Mesquite, Texas USA * R.I.P.
|
Posted 5 Feb 2009 12:15 pm
|
|
#1, #2, & #3 are scissors
#2 & #3 are scissor-style changers
#4 is neither and Mark Durante's changer photograph shows a NON-scissor-style Sho~Bud changer.
Scissor-style changers are marked by having a single piece raising lever and a separate single piece lowering lever attached to each other. This scissor assembly is the used to move a control finger to which the string is attached.
http://www.steelguitar.com/steelmap/maptop/changer.htm |
|
|
|
Pat Comeau
From:
New Brunswick, Canada
|
|
|
|
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
|
Posted 5 Feb 2009 3:35 pm
|
|
Both Mr. Carter's and Mr. Fabian's contributions are legendary. However, the original question was
| Quote: |
| Which PSG builder actually produced the first all pull changer? |
The Harlin design, along with using the first 2-piece finger, must also be classified as as "all-pull" changer as cables were in the pulling train. The early cable Fender changer, while being a slightly different and no longer used design (with both knife-edge and rivet pivots) still qualifies as both an all-pull, and has a genuine scissor design (2 pieces - a raise and a lower lever, and joined near the middle with a rivet).
I will concede that most all modern steels now use a 3-piece finger design, as shown in John's pictures as examples #2 and #3. That is certainly the most popular and practical modern design, for sure. But I feel we should not leave out the Harlin and Fender designs from an all-pull discussion merely because they are no longer used.
 |
|
|
|
John Fabian
From:
Mesquite, Texas USA * R.I.P.
|
Posted 5 Feb 2009 4:10 pm
|
|
Donny,
Although I am complimented by your words, I do not think my contributions rise to the level of "legendary".
Modest would be a more accurate description of my contributions to steel guitar. Actually, any contributions that I have made would never have been possible without Bud Carter's truly legendary contributions to steel guitar.
Hopefully, the Steel Guitar Community will soon give Bud Carter the recognition he has earned.
* * * * *
As you pointed out, Donny, and I agree: MultiKord (Harlin Brothers) and Fender probably were the first all-pull guitars.
MultiKord, Fender, and Bigsby were the well from which pedal steel guitars sprung. |
|
|
|
Mark Durante
From:
St. Pete Beach FL
|
Posted 5 Feb 2009 4:24 pm
|
|
John,
I am happy to be corrected by you. Steel guitar history is a facinating subject to me and I have much to learn. Thanks again b0b for this forum. |
|
|
|
and it's an all pull and it works great. 
