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Topic: Stop me before I break another string (gearless) |
John Polstra
From:
Lopez Island, WA, USA
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Posted 1 Feb 2009 9:26 pm |
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I bought a used Sierra gearless/keyless PSG, and everything was working out fine until I decided to put a new set of strings on it. I got all of the open strings up to pitch without much trouble, but as soon as I pressed the "B" pedal the 3rd (G#) string snapped. I put another new string on in that position, and the exact same thing happened. (These are Jagwire strings.) My third attempt is holding up OK so far, but I'm worried about it. This is my first pedal steel guitar, so I'm wondering if I'm doing something wrong. Here's a photo:
You will notice that the hex screw that holds the string protrudes into the hole that the string passes through. I think the string is breaking where it passes over the end of that screw. Should I be passing the string through the side of the hole and going around the screw, as I did accidentally for the other strings that are shown in the photo? Could it be that I tightened the screw down too tight? Anything else I should try?
By the way, it's nasty when that string breaks! The first time it sliced my left ring finger and the string ended up on the other side of the room.
John |
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Ivan Funk
From:
Hamburg Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 1 Feb 2009 11:13 pm
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I went through the same 3rd string ordeal when I first got my keyless Pedalmaster U12. I was afraid to put one on a third time. Fear made me do crazy things like decide to just tune it down a step to D9/A6. Sounded cool for about 1/2 hour.
I talked to Roy Thomas and he suggested filing away any burr or sharp edge I found along the strings path of travel. Although the Pedalmaster hex screws don't stick down into the "tunnel". Turns out it was the far side of the hole where the string takes a turn upward towards the hex screw top. I see in your photo that the holes are beveled. Check to see if the bevel edge is sharp - both front and back. If not I'd guess its the end of the screw.
Also - only wrap the string around the post just short of one complete circumference. - don't let it overlap on itself. An overlap will eventually cut the string when you clamp it down and stretch it.
You only need to tighten it snug and then a bit more. No need to squash it flat.
Hope this helps.
One more clue. - if you still have the broken string - sometimes you can line it up and see exactly where it broke and see what caused it. |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 2 Feb 2009 6:35 am
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Can you possibly put the strings on like it's done on a Kline? The string goes through the hole and is pulled up the backside, and fastened under the screwhead. You would probably need shorter screws that wouldn't protrude into the string hole. I can't tell from your pic if that's what you're already doing, and I'm not familiar with that system. Maybe you just need shorter screws.
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David Nugent
From:
Gum Spring, Va.
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Posted 2 Feb 2009 7:32 am String
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| This is not an uncommon problem with any steel guitar geared or gearless. Keep in mind that the third string on a steel guitar (most commonly an .011) is usually intended to be tuned to an "E" note on a standard guitar. On a steel you are tuning to a "G#" which raises the string two full tones sharper and then raising it an additional half tone when the pedal is engaged. When installing new strings, I always allow the strings to "settle in" overnight before playing. |
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Bobbe Seymour
From:
Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 2 Feb 2009 9:30 am
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 strings!
Bobbe
Last edited by Bobbe Seymour on 2 Feb 2009 12:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Danny Hullihen
From:
Harrison, Michigan
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Posted 2 Feb 2009 9:46 am
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Ya Bobbe..that's the ticket!  |
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Scott Swartz
From:
St. Louis, MO
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John Polstra
From:
Lopez Island, WA, USA
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Posted 2 Feb 2009 10:22 am
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Thanks for the tips, guys. I'm pretty sure the problem is with my technique rather than with the guitar or strings. The previous owner used the same kind of strings and didn't have big problems with breakage. He told me the strings that were on the guitar when I received it had been installed since August and had been played a lot.
Ivan, I'll check carefully for rough edges next time I have to replace the string.
John B., the strings on my guitar are attached exactly the same as the Kline that you showed in the photo. I think I will talk to Sierra about the length of the screws. Say, where'd you get that nifty hex wrench?
David, I was wondering if I should have let things settle in a bit before trying to play the guitar. I'll try that next time.
Bobbe, I had just ordered another dozen Jagwire .011s when I saw your reply, so I'll try a few more of them first. I still have 3 fingers remaining on my left hand, so I'm good for another couple of string changes. I've got some other stuff I'm going to need to order from you soon, so I'll buy some unbreakable strings then.
Scott, I do have the Sierra manual. However, my guitar is an older one (Crown series) and is a little different. On the tuning levers shown in the manual, the holes are in front of the screw cap, but on mine the holes are underneath the screw and then the string bends straight up to wrap under the screw head.
John |
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Scott Swartz
From:
St. Louis, MO
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Posted 2 Feb 2009 10:29 am
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John,
I used to have a Crown keyless very similar to yours, so I am familiar with what you are saying.
The key point is wrapping the screw gives a large area to secure the string and as you are torquing the screw it helps in tensioning the string as the string is pulled around the screw.
On the wound strings I have actually gone too far and have the string past final pitch after holding the string taut and then tightening the screw.
_________________
Scott Swartz
Steeltronics - Steel Guitar Pickups
www.steeltronics.com |
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John Polstra
From:
Lopez Island, WA, USA
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Posted 2 Feb 2009 10:35 am
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Thanks, Scott. On the Crown keyless that you used to have, did the screw protrude into the string hole like mine does? It seems like it can't be good to have the string passing over the end of that screw. When I tension the string, should I be pulling it to the side to try to get it to go around the tip of the screw instead of straight over the tip?
John |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 2 Feb 2009 11:02 am
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| John, the wrench came with the guitar. OEM. I'm pretty sure that those screws are too loooong! Take one out, and head to the hardware store. Get shorter screws. They only need to be as long as the threaded hole at most. Any screw length stickin' into the string hole is just askin' for trouble. And,,, there's no threads in the string hole, so longer screws don't have any more holding power than shorter ones. |
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Scott Swartz
From:
St. Louis, MO
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Posted 2 Feb 2009 11:46 am
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I agree the screws are too long.
The string should be clamped by at least 180 degrees of the screwhead area, and you want to wrap it under so the screw is tightening the string as you tighten the screw (ie clockwise)
_________________
Scott Swartz
Steeltronics - Steel Guitar Pickups
www.steeltronics.com |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 2 Feb 2009 2:53 pm
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I had a Sierra Crown Gearless and it drove me nuts with what sounds like the same problem. I don't remember the string going under the screw end, but even after carefully buffing and letting strings settle, I would sometimes break 4 or 5 before one held to pitch. Considering they almost always broke on stage, that was just unacceptable. And then there was the issue of having to wrap the string around something and pull it hard to get it close enough to pitch to come up on the fine tuner...
No thanks. |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 2 Feb 2009 3:05 pm
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John,
Those rollers don't look they're gauged correctly. Could they have been removed, and then replaced in the wrong order? |
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John Polstra
From:
Lopez Island, WA, USA
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Posted 2 Feb 2009 3:33 pm
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John B., I know the guitar was worked on a year ago, but the rollers look OK to my untrained eyes. Here's a better picture of them:
John |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 2 Feb 2009 3:39 pm
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| JP, it looks like all the grooves in the rollers are about the same size??? I'm used to seeing different sized grooves. Ya know,,, the 3rd string having a very narrow groove as opposed to a very wide groove for the 10th string. |
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John Polstra
From:
Lopez Island, WA, USA
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Posted 2 Feb 2009 8:46 pm
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John B., there are definitely at least a few different gauges of rollers on the guitar. Compare the 12th string's roller to the 3rd string's in the photo, for example. I don't think there is a different gauge for each and every string, but they do get narrower toward the thinner strings.
I'm going to get some slightly shorter hex screws to keep the screw tips from touching the strings, but aside from that I still don't think there's an inherent problem in the guitar itself. The previous owner says he didn't have string breakage problems. He's been very straight with me, and I have no reason to doubt him. Aside from the screws being too long, I have a feeling I'm just a victim of my own inexperience. It's a self-correcting problem, I guess. If strings keep breaking, I'll get lots of practice. 
John |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 2 Feb 2009 9:16 pm
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I guess it's not relevant to the topic of the thread, but I've just got to ask: Could you post a wider, i.e. not so close up, view of what you showed in the photo in the first post?
I can't seem to understand what I'm seeing! You're speaking of a gearless guitar, but there are what looks like the "buttons" of tuning gears in the background of the picture. I went on the Sierra website and didn't see anything that looked like that!  I suppose those must be the "finger knobs" whereby you tune up the strings?? But what model Sierra is it? |
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Scott Swartz
From:
St. Louis, MO
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John Roche
From:
England
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Posted 3 Feb 2009 2:55 am
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| John P, it looks as if you have not wound the string around the screw. pull the string through the hole and then with the screw undone pull the string up and around and under the screw head, then when the tension is correct tighten down the screw, job done |
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John Polstra
From:
Lopez Island, WA, USA
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Posted 3 Feb 2009 9:50 am
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Brint, the photo that Scott Swartz linked shows it pretty clearly. Each string is attached to the top of an L-shaped lever that is mounted on a pivot at its elbow. The horizontal portion of the lever extends underneath its corresponding tuning key. The tuning key is simply a threaded rod that threads through a tapped hole in the aluminum top plate. When you screw in the tuning key, the rod pushes on the L-shaped lever and increases the tension on the string.
John Roche, you can't see it in my photo, but I do have the strings wrapped correctly around the screws. Each string goes through the hole, bends up to the top, and wraps clockwise under the screw head for 180-270 degrees.
By the way, my current 3rd string is holding up fine, for whatever reason. When it breaks or starts to sound tired, I'm going to check the screw size and threads and try to get some shorter ones. I'm sure Sierra has them, or I can order them from McMaster-Carr. (What can't you get there?) I'll check for rough edges then, too.
Anyway, thanks for all the help and advice!
John |
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Dennis Wood
From:
Savannah, TN USA
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Posted 3 Feb 2009 5:23 pm
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I have a Sierra crown about the same as yours. I purchased screws from McMaster-Carr to replace the originals that were worn. Mine aren't standard hex screws but a mushroom hex head for more surface to hold the string. I think they are #6-40 X 3/8".
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auribus teneo lupum |
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John Polstra
From:
Lopez Island, WA, USA
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Posted 3 Feb 2009 6:45 pm
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Thanks, Dennis. I can use that information. Eyeballing my Sierra, it looks about right.
John |
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John Polstra
From:
Lopez Island, WA, USA
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Posted 3 Feb 2009 6:50 pm
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Thanks, Dennis. I can use that information. Eyeballing my Sierra, it looks about right.
John |
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Dennis Wood
From:
Savannah, TN USA
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Posted 4 Feb 2009 6:46 pm
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I have the box around here somewhere, and I only used 12, if i can locate it. I bought a box(50 or 100), I will send you some if you don't find any locally.
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auribus teneo lupum |
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