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Topic: inversions - least discussed topic? |
ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 27 Jan 2009 10:11 am |
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| Maybe I missed it over the years, but I do not remember "inversions" being discussed. Either nobody cares, or every body knows how to find and use them. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 27 Jan 2009 10:26 am
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Well....
It could be that those that care KNOW how to find them, and those that don't aren't interested anyway.
Makes sense to me!
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Michael Douchette
From:
Gallatin, TN (deceased)
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Herb Steiner
From:
Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064
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Posted 27 Jan 2009 12:42 pm
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Okay...
Well, there's 1-3-5, 3-5-1, and 5-1-3. That covers the closed voicings.
Then there's 5-3-1, 1-5-3, and 3-1-5. Those cover the open voicings.
Guys?
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Ken Pippus
From:
Langford, BC, Canada
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Posted 27 Jan 2009 1:27 pm
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Herb Steiner certainly is aware of the fact, but there are a bunch of chords which include more than a 1 a 3 and a 5, and the inversions on those chords becomes a little more critical discussion.
We have an inversion going on here today, too. It was 3 degrees at my house and 25 at 2000 ft.
KP |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 27 Jan 2009 6:57 pm interval rotation or different chord with same note names?
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Sheesh…you “first responders” are smart chaps! You should become astrophysicists as you are already halfway there (as Jerry Lee said “think about it”)…till you finish your education, you will remain “half astrophysicists”. Hey, you threw the first snowball.
Now on to the subject:
The Colorado man is correct in his comment re complexity in inversions. There are the R,3,5…3,5,1,…5,1,3 rotations as per Herb; then one could make it C,E,G,C and have fun with that, or go on to the other four tone structures complete with b&# 3rds, b&# 5ths, and bths and combinations thereof. Each of these could be considered as rotations of the 1,3,5,7 variations, or as chords with different roots…further, they might be considered as partials of 5 tone chords without roots, etc.
I have a difficulty with how to talk/think about inversions. One could treat C E G A as 1,3,5,6, = I6….then the 1st inversion is E G A C = 3,5,6,1, etc. till we get to the 3rd inversion = 6,1,3,5, = Am7 as many would prefer to call it. Notice that there is a tendency to change the root in naming the 3rd inversion, but not the 1st and 2nd.
If we changed the roots we would get C E G A = 1,3,5,6 = C6….E G A C = 1,b3,s4,#5 = Ems4#5 = IIIms4#5 and so on till we have the 3rd inversion = A C E G = 1,b3,5,b7 = Am7 where the A is the root as spelled. I tend to use s2 and s4 in chord type names as suspension is their primary function.
Now if we take the same C,E,G,A into a two octave seven tone environment, we still have the C E G A = 1,3,5,6 = C6 for the root inversion, but for E G A C we have raised the C an octave so it becomes either a #7 or a bb9 …see where this thought pattern leads?
Consider the implications re the PSG and the tuning methods…if the inversions work their way up the neck using the same strings, then the root string of the root inversion becomes the #5 of the 1st inversion becomes the s4 of the 2rd inversion, becomes the b7 of the 3rd inversion…sounds like tweak tuning would be a problem for those that might like to play more than two strings at a time. |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Michael Douchette
From:
Gallatin, TN (deceased)
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Posted 27 Jan 2009 7:17 pm
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Mr. Packard, do you wish to discuss inversions, as you originally requested, or intervals, as you are now? They are different, and it would make it easier to have a conversation if it stays focused.
The interval discussion you've brought in, while technically correct and showcasing your knowledge well, is somewhat useless in practicality. 7# and bb9 are 1, period. TRUE, in classically written pieces, these are functional, usable terms. But in the day to day world of music that most of us play, that is trivial and confusing.
Regarding the implications involved with tuning; this is why I am an avid opponent of the Newman system. Once the notes that have been tuned flat (thirds) to begin with become other voices in different chords, the other notes that now become thirds have to be tuned progressively flatter. This is a problem that, I believe, gives those that don't like steel guitar the unknown basis for their distaste.
Now, a voicing experiment, from Lloyd. Try using strings 3, 8 and 10 together. There are some beautiful things to be found there.
_________________
Mikey D... H.S.P.
Music hath the charm to soothe a savage beast, but I'd try a 10mm first.
http://www.steelharp.com
http://www.thesessionplayers.com/douchette.html
(other things you can ask about here)
http://s117.photobucket.com/albums/o54/Steelharp/ |
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Tommy Shown
From:
Denham Springs, La.
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Posted 27 Jan 2009 7:29 pm
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Ya'll are talking jibberish to me. I just read what ya'll are talking about and it threw me.
Tommy Shown  |
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Ned McIntosh
From:
New South Wales, Australia
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Posted 27 Jan 2009 10:10 pm
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Big inversion at my local airfield this morning!
Ground temperature was 18C (64F). At 1000 feet it was 22C (72F), at 2000 feet it was 24C(75F) and at 3000 feet it was 26C(79). I didn't bother going higher because that sort of inversion usually means an a@#-kicking lot of turbulence somewhere up there.
Actually, knowing the commonest inversions on the steel is very helpful for a lot of backup stuff. An inversion may also be happily close to a 4 or a 5th chord (with a similar but subtly different voicing) with just a simple pedal or lever move and a one or two-fret bar-slide. I have been looking for (and finding) these lately for some "real steel" stuff the hot Tele-player can't reproduce!
It's kind of neat to be able to play the whole three-chord trick with minimal bar movement and it can make some nice turnarounds or endings if you run through the sequence with only one chord picked, then just use volume pedal to sustain the chord as you modify it twice. Works great in harmonics, too.
Strings 3, 8 and 10 together...hmmm. I think I'll try that tonight at the local C&W "have-a-go" session. Thanks Mike Douchette! (Mike blows one cool harmonica, I got a sample of his work from Dale Hanson when we were emailing about his Bessdang Gizmos.)
_________________
The steel guitar is a hard mistress. She will obsess you, bemuse and bewitch you. She will dash your hopes on what seems to be whim, only to tease you into renewing the relationship once more so she can do it to you all over again...and yet, if you somehow manage to touch her in that certain magic way, she will yield up a sound which has so much soul, raw emotion and heartfelt depth to it that she will pierce you to the very core of your being. |
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Michael Douchette
From:
Gallatin, TN (deceased)
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Alan Harrison
From:
Murfreesboro Tennessee, USA
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Posted 28 Jan 2009 5:48 am I'm a thinking about this!
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I agree with what I think Mikey D said, I think!!!
_________________
Mullen (Black) Pre G-2 9x7, B.L. 705 PUP's, Evans SE 200 Telonics NEO 15-4, BJS Bar, Peterson Strobo Flip, Steelers Choice Seat, Folgers Coffee and Hilton Pedals.
"I Steel Without Remorse" |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 28 Jan 2009 6:20 am
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Hey, I have enough trouble playing this thing when it's right side up. Now you want me to invert it and play it upside down? 
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 28 Jan 2009 7:54 am more stuff that is trivial and confusing
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Greetings Jim the Jazz man……yep, tired, retired, and down to running on fumes. Lots of time to consider impractical things like PSG vs. music theory. Nice work in “feenix”! Bald is good…saves on haircuts.
Tommy…it is all gibberish to me too, that’s why I am trying to make sense out of it..hep me, hep me.
Ned…You are from “down under” so inversions should be a natural for you! Using the inversions with banjo rolls for doing the doodilly doos as you go up the neck is probably the best use for them…by George, I think you’ve got it! If you have a golden ear, you don’t need to know the details of the darn things..I don’t so I do.
Alan…I have been trying to figure out both what he said and why he said it…I also think that I agree with some of it.
Mike…move to Australia.
And now….Mr. Douchette …I notice that you may be trying to elevate this to a more formal discussion (Mr. Packard????) so I will try to oblige.
Focused conversation indeed…when did you ever find that on the Forum?
I find no conflict re inversions and intervals…intervals being the distance between notes, and the opening shot being in notes for the key of C for ease of think, and then adding the intervals as Herb used to the mix.
RE “showcasing”…what is showcased is my ignorance as I stated that I don’t know how to talk/think about inversions…you seemed to agree with that. I think that we are close to agreement re the tuning issue.
What “practicality” is a matter of environment, as are “trivial and confusing”…as said to Ned, if you can do something, you have less need to know the theory…but some of us need a self consistent system to go by.
I usually go to the books for this kind of stuff. I checked A. Schoenberg and left more confused…I felt that he was dancing around the subject.
I chose the four tone chord for the opener as four tone chords are probably the most used form of inversions. If this unfocused discussion lasts, we might journey into five tone chords, and the arithmetic of midi note numbers.
I have a chart of 27 each 4 tone C chords for use with inversions, and 9 each 3 tone C chords... available to anyone that emails me if they would like one. These were included in the E9 laid out, C6 laid out etc. series that was offered about two years ago. Not much was said about the theory in the mailings; just the note sequences were given. Now I am trying to figure some descriptive text to add to it. I hope that this thread might reveal what info would be useful to the reader. |
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Michael Douchette
From:
Gallatin, TN (deceased)
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Posted 28 Jan 2009 8:16 am
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Ed... if I may... I addressed you as "Mr. Packard" out of respect for your obvious depth of knowledge in this subject. Don't proclaim ignorance; you've shown that to not be the case at all. I mean that sincerely.
I would love to have a copy of the chart you have. I'm sure it would open my ears to many things I have missed, and I would love the opportunity to explore it.
Kindest regards,
_________________
Mikey D... H.S.P.
Music hath the charm to soothe a savage beast, but I'd try a 10mm first.
http://www.steelharp.com
http://www.thesessionplayers.com/douchette.html
(other things you can ask about here)
http://s117.photobucket.com/albums/o54/Steelharp/ |
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Paul Graupp
From:
Macon Ga USA
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Posted 28 Jan 2009 11:43 am
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Ed; Now might be a good time to introduce the colored waveform chart you sent me of harmonic structures. I know what it represents but have yet to digest it satisfactorily. I still tend to insist that harmonics relating to music are a waveform subject and not of pure mathematical values. They tend to mix and blend whereas numbers do not.
But I am way off-topic so let me get back to this present discussion. I'll be bak when and if I can contribute...
Regards, Paul  |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 28 Jan 2009 1:18 pm
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Notwithstanding my earlier factitious comment, this is something I and every other person who has studied harmony in school knows about.
An inverted chord is simply one in which the root of the chord does not appear in the bass. The first inversion is one in which the 3rd of the chord is in the bass, On the steel this would be the pedals down position.On the open strings, the note C# found on the 10th string is the 3rd of the A major chord.
The second inversion is where the 5th of the chord is in the bass. On the steel this is the pedals up position, and the low B note is the 5th of the E chord.
The third position only applies to 7th chords, and is when the 7th of the chord is in the bass. On the steel this would be if you're playing an E7 chord using the 9th string as a bass note
When chords are inverted, the intervals that comprise then are also converted. 3rds become 6ths, 4ths become 5ths, 2nds become 7ths and vice versa. All intervals and their inversions add up to 9. There are no exceptions to this.
IT IS IMPORTANT TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN THE NAMES OF THE PARTS OF CHORDS, (3RD,5TH ETC) AND THE INTERVALS WITH THE SAME NAME. The 3rd of a chord CAN BE a the interval of a 3rd away from the root, depending on how the chord is played, but it can also be a 6th (remember all intervals and their inversions add up to 9) or a 10th (An octave plus a third) or more.
And just to make things even more confusing, in classical music, inverted chords are identified by the distance between the bass note and the nearest root. Therefore, a chord in the first inversion (third of the chord in the bass) is called a 6 chord, because the interval between the third of the chord and the root is a 6th. This has absolutely nothing to do with what we call a 6th chord, (as in C6)
It's very confusing, and very theoretical, and it has little practical value as far as people like us are concerned. It's very easy to get hung up in it and lose sight of the really important things which is HOW DOES IT SOUND?
If whatever you're playing sounds right, it IS right. All the numbers and names are meaningless.
Besides, if you are playing with a bass player, it is what he or she plays that determines what inversion is being played.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 28 Jan 2009 1:28 pm inversions and BIAB files.
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The requested inversion charts have been sent..if you don't get them let me know.
I got curious as to how some of them might sound. Not being that quick from eye to strings, I entered some of them into BIAB....inversion chords as quarter notes, and doodilly doodilly s (up the neck like banjo forward rolls = thumb, first finger, second finger) as eighth notes.
Reasonably informative way to go...allows choosing the best of the group, and playing along with them at chosen speed and key.
Next handouts may be accompanied with BIAB files.
Paul G...I might do that but combine it with the 33 PSGs that we characterized at Jim Palenscars shop a couple of years ago. I'll see what I can come up with. |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 29 Jan 2009 6:58 am the mother lode
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| http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inversion_(music)The above link will get you serious definitions and examples re chord inversions...and other chord/music thingies...I should have looked there first.The times, they are a changing...old pharts like me got used to text books and reference material for research...then thr Forums came along...now tutorials an reference materials are all available on line...as are PSG lessons = Joe Wright one on one via Skype.All that is left re inversions seems to be: where are they on the various necks, and how best to use them. |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 29 Jan 2009 8:00 am
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Chords are made of intervals, therefore intervals aren't out of the question.
| Mike Perlowin wrote: |
An inverted chord is simply one in which the root of the chord does not appear in the bass. |
At least this clears up the terminology part that's been bandied about, whether the root position (e.g. 1,3,5) is called the first inversion or not. Good clear distinction, Mike.
| Quote: |
| It's very confusing, and very theoretical, and it has little practical value as far as people like us are concerned. It's very easy to get hung up in it and lose sight of the really important things which is HOW DOES IT SOUND? |
I disagree that it has little practical value.
The distinction between voicings (what inversions are sometimes called) is used all the time on piano and steel; it may be less than conscious, but it amounts to the difference in a bland chord and just the right one, with 'how does it sound' as the determining factor. |
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Chris Reesor
From:
British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 29 Jan 2009 2:02 pm
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Mikey D., you must be talking about Bars of Steel. I love those spread-out voicings in the B part but man, they are hard to block clean... unless you're Lloyd!
Great thread, gang. I'll be back when I return from my dental appointment. 
CR.
_________________
Excel Superb U12, MIJ Squier tele, modified Deluxe Reverb RI, Cube 80XL, self built acoustics & mandolins |
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Roual Ranes
From:
Atlanta, Texas, USA
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Posted 30 Jan 2009 5:24 am
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| Holy Reverb Batman..............a diversion to inversion. |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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John McGann
From:
Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 30 Jan 2009 5:54 am
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| Theory topics tend to generate "interesting" responses on the forum. |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 30 Jan 2009 7:00 am the "invert" strikes again...get Batman!
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JC...just mail 'em in...then go get a haircut.
John...nice to see you in "feenix"...looked for you after the interuption, but in vain. Re responses to theory topics...I have a theory about that!
The reason for starting the thread was that I wanted a better understanding of how the Forum folk "thought" about the inversion subject...or if they did at all.
Some time back, I offered for free a set of Excel spreadsheets via email covering E9, C6, E9/b6, and Bb13. The series was called "laid out". In the preamble to the chord location charts was the chart of inversions showing that a I6 1st inversion had the same note names as a IIIms4#5; That a I6 2nd inversion the same as V6s2s4, and so forth.
When we rename the inversions by using their lowest note as the root, we get some strange looking chord types (to most of us), but when applied to a chord location list generated in terms of the root note of the chord type, we can easilly find the inversions of the "mother chord", and those are nice to know for the doodilly doos up and down the neck.
I can just imagine the expressions on some faces that jumped straight to the chord list when they saw the chord names for the chord inversions not having read the part about inversions.
Several hundred Forum folk asked for these "blurbs".
OK, so now we have another use for inversions that helps locate them.
There is more...next the arithmetic of inversions. |
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