Why aren't the chromatic strings useful?

Greg Gefell · From: Upstate NY

I've been wondering why you don't see non-pedal tunings that use the PSG re-entrant, chromatic, out of order, (whatever you wanna call em) strings very often.

Is it just because most non pedalers max out at 8 strings and just don't have space for them, or don't they bring much to the party without the pedals?

Confused

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Tom Wolverton · From: Carpinteria, CA

Greg - I think you asked a very good question. I suspect there are many different answers.

I'll take a stab at it, but it will be from my paradigm only. I used to play E9th pedal steel and am familiar with these strings. When I quit playing PSG and went to a non-pedal steel, I wanted something different. I wanted to approach the fingerboard differently and break the old E9th habits and patterns. So for me, I have no interest in re-stringing the guitar like that.

But this is not to say that it isn't a good idea and should work. There are others that do this and it works well for them, I hear.

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

I have a 1937 Gibson 7 stringer that has the "chromatic" string on the bottom.
The nut isn't cut wide enough for a fat, low string.
I would assume maybe it would be used to add a 7th to a chord.

Stephan Miller · From: Silver Spring, Maryland, USA

I think they're useful, but it's true that when they're used on non-pedal steels it's usually by players with a pedal background who've already spent time exploring the possibilities, and most often it seems on 10- or even 12-string (Reece Anderson) nonpedal tunings.

I think the "chromatics" can be very usable in an 8-string tuning, though some pickers go with one or the other, not both. Tommy Auldridge goes with (lo-hi) D E G# B C# E G# F# on his lap steel, and I believe drops the same intervals down to Bb C E G A C E D on one or both of his Fender doublenecks. He seems to like that 1st string more for speed-picking advantages than added chords. For chords, adding the other "chromatic" gives you a rooted major 7th (among other things) Bb C E G A C E B-- with the option of adding the 6th interval into the middle as in (rootless is sweeter here IMO) Bb C E G A C E B.

Just looking at at C E G A C E B D as a third option, I can see plenty there too-- and if you're not too set on always keeping the bass root, re-tuning the C down to Bb or up to C# gives you plenty more to play with.

Then there's Joaquin's tuning.

As long as you can get your head around having out-of-order strings there... Confused

Me, I usually play with the "5th on top"...A6...and some of the necessary grips just seem too wide. Doesn't faze Reece, though Whoa!

...

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

I think the reason is historical, basically. The basic nonpedal tunings preceded the evolution of the pedal steel and Buddy Emmons added the 2 chromatic strings later on to pedal guitars. So those who've never played pedal guitars with the chromatics have gotten comfortable making music without them. Those who have played pedal guitar might or might not want to keep them on but most nonpedal guitars are fewer than 10 strings so you have to make a tradeoff as to what you're going to give up, if you're coming from a pedal guitar background, and I suspect the chromatics are seen as 'less critical' compared to the remaining strings.

But, of course, I could be full of poop.
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George Piburn · From: The Land of Enchantment New Mexico

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

Joaquin had several re-entrant tunings and he said there were lots of guys back in the 40s before pedals that did the same.He had an E13(he called it C#min)with the 7th as a thin string in the middle of the neck.That's the tuning he used on Oklahoma Stomp. All the good players fooled with oddball tunings and that was their version of some secret pedal change that a guy might have nowadays. Marian Hall told me the same thing. Murph used to de-tune his guitar when he was on intermission and was at the bar or in the bathroom because other steel players would come up on stage and strum across his tunings and try to write them down.Freddie Roulette has a re-entrant A7 with a high 7th at the bottom. Because it's where it is,he can do bar tip split slants that make it a maj7 or a 6th much easier than if it was in the middle of the neck. No,there's lots of history of chromatic strings on a non-pedal guitar.

Dean Gray · From: New South Wales, Australia

This is a timely thread for me, I am just exploring this concept myself.

I took the low F# off my 8 string A6 tuning, shuffled everything else down one position, and added the 2nd or 9th (B) on top, to give

Low to Hi - A, C#, E, F#, A, C#, E, B -(lower than string 3)

I do miss having the low 6th, which I sometimes tuned to G for a Dom 7th, but having the 2nd/9th up on top allows for some smooth scalar runs, plus great imitation pedal steel behind the bar pulls. It also gives new partial chord diads and triads allowing you to suggest chord progessions from one bar position.

A friend is building me a 10 string non pedal steel, which will be tuned high C6 with the 2nd and 4th on top. So I regain my low 6th/dom 7th, and get 2 new chromatic notes on top(or are they diatonic, as they are part of the major scale?). This further expands the potential for behind the bar pulls and slants, as well as allowing a scalar run from root, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th without moving the bar. Not that I am opposed to moving around the fretboard, but this gives even more options!

I know this is not new, but it's new to me!

Thanks to everyone who posted all the great info regarding the history of this concept.

P.S. fellow forum member Chris Drew is making me some beautiful custom fretboards for this project, I will post photos when they arrive!
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Billy Wilson · From: El Cerrito, California, USA

Reese has 'em on his non pedal Superslide tuning, B and D on top on a c6th tuning.

Peter Jacobs · From: Northern Virginia

I play what is basically 6-string open G, but I add a C on top to make a Gsus4. This lets me get sort of pedal steel-ish sounds when I do rolls, but I use it most often to get typical rock n roll sounds (perfect for Keith Richards stuff). I actually started doing it to try and cop some Sonny Landreth slide licks.

Low to high:
G D G B D C

Works for me.
Peter
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Greg Gefell · From: Upstate NY

Its all in what you get used to I guess.

I've been using them quite a bit on my 10 string. I like the extensions and the extra 2 and 3 note harmony positions they provide without having to jump up the neck so often.

It also seems to me that once you are beyond 8 strings you don't really need any more octave reinforcement of the 1,3,5 or 6.

That major 7 and a 9 give you more versatility.
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Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

Just as an FYI, Buddy added the D note to the C6 way before 1982-3, as George P. opined. It was more like early-to-mid 70's.

Paul Franklin Jr. told me about that note in October of 1977, saying it was necessary to play in a minor key easily. Of course, he was correct, as I discovered when I added the note to replace the G I had on s.1.

And yes, I know Herby Wallace and others still have a G on s.1 and play their tails off. I know, and I don't care. Laughing

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Edward Meisse · From: Santa Rosa, California, USA

My understanding is that b0b uses a chromatic string on his 8 string nonpedal tuning. I think he does something like D-E-C-A-G-E-C-Bb (top to bottom).
Mike Auldridge reputedly uses the same tuning with an A on the bottom. Maybe one of these two will chime in.
I tried it. But I couldn't for the life of me figure out the advantage of having the chromatic string. The C13 above is sometimes called the, "Jazz Tuning." I can't figure why it would be more jazzy than C6/A9 or the McAulliffe/Morrell E13/E9.
I kind of like Murph's C6/A9. But I don't think of it as a chromatic tuning. The re-entrant string is part of the A9 chord and I generally use that string in what I think of as a very diatonic way. But someone is sure to point out that the D in the C13 above is a part of the C13 chord as well. Could this all be just useless intellectual gymnastics?
When I really want to know about a tuning I just string up a guitar and try it out. If I can see how it works, I keep it in mind as something that may be useful to me. If not, I forget it. In the case of the above mentioned E13 I have asked for help. I'll be buying some instructional materials in due course. The same is true of Leavitt. I rarely find extended discussions useful. So I'll butt out now.
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Dave Zirbel · From: Sebastopol, CA USA

I think bay area legend Bobby Black has a 12 string non pedal with chromatics on it. I think it was a C6 tuning with a D and a B on top before the C. Billy Wilson might know more.

Billy?

DZ

Mark Eaton · Posted 20 Dec 2008 11:49 am

Dave - I don't know exactly what Bobby uses on a regular basis, but when he first got his 12 string non-pedal MSA Super Slide from Reece, he played in Sonoma with Don Burnham and Lost Weekend and he told me he was trying out the Reece Anderson tuning.

To me he didn't sound like he was "trying out" anything - he sounded like he'd been playing that tuning his whole life! Cool

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Dave Zirbel · From: Sebastopol, CA USA

I know what you mean Mark! Very Happy

I saw him in Sonoma with Don before he had the Superslide. He was playing a West Coast 12 string non pedal that Bob Littleton built him. It was soon after he showed up to the San Jose jam with a 10 string E-Harp non pedal and blew the roof off! After playing steel for nearly 6 decades he is still experimenting and searching for new ideas. How cool is that! Cool

Chris Scruggs · From: Nashville, Tennessee, USA

Well, you asked. How can I sugar coat this,

I just can't stand the sound of those out of sequence strings.

Guitars don't need out of sequence strings to get a never ending sea of semi-conflicting notes, why does steel? Are we steel harpists or steel guitarists?

As a listener I find it creates a safety net below the trapeze act of playing steel guitar and gives it a safe sound that I find boring. It's practical to the point of being predictable and convenient to the point of sounding lazy.

It feels like cheating to me. When I sit in on a friends steel with a high D on his C6, if I hit the D string I always feel a little let down like,"Why didn't I just slip my bar up two frets and play it on the C string?".

As a player I believe the beauty in steel without pedals is the room for individuality. Even if two players both play the same song on the same tuning on the same guitar, they will still sound different because they have different hands. When you throw those chromatic strings in there, a lot of left hand movement and technique disappears and they start to sound the same like pedal players do, playing the entire melody just on one or two frets. It starts to sound monotonous.

I find chromatic strings on a steel guitar makes it sound like a pedal steel. If I wanted to sound like a pedal steel guitarist, I would play pedal steel. I'd probably make a lot more money, too.

Did I use enough sugar coating?

Chris Scruggs

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I use an out-of-sequence high F# on my E13th:

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

Without discounting Chris and his playing, which I admire greatly, I agree with b0b. It's the player's approach to the tuning and technique more than the string sequence. Just my dos centavos.
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Billy Wilson · From: El Cerrito, California, USA

Dave Z, Bobby's got the B and D too.

Chris Scruggs · From: Nashville, Tennessee, USA

Just to clarify my admittedly highly opinionated statement, my opinion to chromatic strings is for my personal tastes as a listener and player and are not a reflection of my views of the many great players that use chromatic strings. The close high interval thing is just not a sound I'm personally fond of.

Chris

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