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Topic: rewinding pickup |
Dwight Lewis
From:
Huntsville, Alabama
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Posted 16 Dec 2008 3:57 pm |
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| I have a MSA Classic SD12 that has a single coil and I want to get it rewound but I want it to have a bigger, thicker sound more in the low and mids. But I want it wound by someone that is known for doing this well. Any suggestions? |
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Don Brown, Sr.
From:
New Jersey
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Posted 16 Dec 2008 5:03 pm
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Dwight,
I've been told, that "Lindy Fraylin Pickups" in Richmond VA., was the man to see?
So, I hope someone "from that area" reads this, who might better know them, because, I've never done business with them. But it's worth a shot. I do know a man who did, who said he was fast getting them back to him, and he was very reasonably priced as well. Hope that helps.
If you'd like I can PM you the phone number I was given. I wouldn't want to drop someone's number here, unless I first had their permission.
Don |
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Andy Sandoval
From:
Bakersfield, California, USA
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Roger Crawford
From:
Griffin, GA USA
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Posted 18 Dec 2008 9:33 am
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| Another vote for Jerry Wallace. |
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Sonny Priddy
From:
Elizabethtown, Kentucky, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 18 Dec 2008 1:19 pm pickup
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| Jerry Wallace Great pickup's Great Work. SONNY. |
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Bobbe Seymour
From:
Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 18 Dec 2008 2:12 pm
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Your problem isn't the pickup.
Bobbe |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 18 Dec 2008 2:47 pm
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I'll agree with Bobbe. The MSA pickups were pretty much "max wound" (around 18k). It would be hard to wind more wire on there and get a fatter tone. You could try another pickup, but I have a feeling your problem may be your amp, or how you have it set.
Curly Chalker used stock MSA pickups, and pedal steel sounds don't come much "fatter" than his was! |
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Gary Cosden
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 18 Dec 2008 3:16 pm
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| Donny - when you say 18K are you referring to MSA's 10 strings pick ups? The reason I ask is that I know Jerry Wallace winds his 10 string pickups to about 18K but his 12 string (at least the one he made me) are more like 20K and I found it to be too "fat" for my tastes. The point being if he has a 12 string wound to 18K he actually would get a fatter sound from a 20K - at least from my experience. This is not to say the pickup is the issue in the first place either or the only or even the best route to the tone he is after. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 18 Dec 2008 4:22 pm
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| Quote: |
| The point being if he has a 12 string wound to 18K he actually would get a fatter sound from a 20K - at least from my experience. |
IMHO, that small change (about 10%) would probably make a barely discernable difference - not really enough to bother with. |
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Gary Cosden
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 18 Dec 2008 5:16 pm
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| Donny on my guitar (Sierra session 12 string) it made a lot more difference than you would think. Much thinner overall tone with distinctly clearer lows and better overall balance. Certainly more dramatic than the 10% or 11% difference might lead you to believe. When I went from 20K to 18K someone I play with asked me what was different saying my tone was "clearer" than before which was exactly my impression as well. After a lot of experimenting with the EQ on my NV 400 I finally wound up almost exactly where I was with the 20K pickup. I am trying out a 17K with a tap at 15.5K in a week or so. I do think that almost all PSGs having a maple soundboard means that my experience with an aluminum Sierra is bound to be different but in my case at least there is a significant difference between 18K and 20K. |
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Dwight Lewis
From:
Huntsville, Alabama
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Posted 20 Dec 2008 7:39 pm MSA pickup
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Yes fellas, I took a look at the pickup and it has on one side, the windings are bunched up . I measured it with a fluke and came up with 13.9kohm. I talked with Jerry and he was surprised at this as I was. I have 12str. pups that go up to 30k. The 12str. tend to be over 20kohms. My neck is only big enough to accomodate this pickup, so I will have it routed for the bigger pups and have Jerry send me one thats got the juice. He is a very pleasant person to talk with. Hats off to Jerry Wallace my friends.
Dwight |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 20 Dec 2008 7:56 pm Re: MSA pickup
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| Dwight Lewis wrote: |
Yes fellas, I took a look at the pickup and it has on one side, the windings are bunched up . I measured it with a fluke and came up with 13.9kohm.
Dwight |
Well that's a different story. It proves that the original pickup has been changed or modified. 14k is pretty low for a 12-str. pickup, and you'd most certainly benefit from a new pickup, or getting that one rewound.
Keep in mind that these resistance readings are only germane for the same brand and type of pickup. Pickups from 2 different manufacturers might sound different even though they have exactly the same DC resistance. The amount of wire is only one small component of the entire pickup's design.
| Gary Cosden wrote: |
| After a lot of experimenting with the EQ on my NV 400 I finally wound up almost exactly where I was with the 20K pickup. |
I'm happy you discovered that! (It's a fact that many players here refuse to believe.  ) |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 20 Dec 2008 8:39 pm
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The DC resistance does not define "fat' or "thin" or even output. Two 18k pickups may sound totally different and have different output - magnet size/type, bobbin design, wire gage, turns, and other more esoteric factors enter into it.
For years conventional wisdom in the 6-string world was that low-impedance (actually DC resistance) - say, 6.5k - meant a thinner, trebly pickup with medium output; an "overwound" pickup at 9k was fatter, louder, had more mids - but might also be muddier and not "cut" as well.
Steel pickups in the 50's/60's - Fender is a good example - were anywhere from 5.5 to 8k (or so) and had a reputation as being "thin". Except in reality they are very fat sounding - it was the advent of E9 and the high tuning that brought on "thin" sounds.
If you take the "model" based on resistance, and 18 or 20k steel pickup should be thick, muddy, bassy and loud as heck...yet the opposite is generally true, with them usually being more balanced - although with high output.
OTOH you can take a lap steel with a 3.5k pickup and it'll crack concrete with strong mids and incredible output.
So - while you CAN talk to a pickup designer and have something tweaked to provide the kind of EQ you want, the basic platform will limit what you'll get out of it. I had an MSA Classic and played with a few pickups and, even though it (a least the model I had) is one of the few steels with actual volume and tone controls on the guitar, I could not get ANYTHING but a thin tone out of it.
So talk o pickup guys...and you might think outside the box and go to a designer like Seymour Duncan, who really fine-tunes things to the point where he has something like a dozen or more Tele bridge pickups - you might make some improvement, but my guess is you end up looking at the basic platform as the issue.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Michael Douchette
From:
Gallatin, TN (deceased)
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Craig A Davidson
From:
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA
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Posted 21 Dec 2008 7:15 am
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| Dwight just pull the one you have and send it to Jerry. The turn around time is pretty short. Then your pick-up will fit without butchering your guitar. |
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Dwight Lewis
From:
Huntsville, Alabama
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Posted 23 Dec 2008 9:34 pm Pickup
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Craig gets the prize for reading my mind the best. I have tried different pickups on a different MSA and have gotten different tones. Like per say a BL 712( warm and articulate) GL12-1 ( not as warm or articulate but close) Stock MSA SS PUP( Very midrangy with decent highs and lows. I have an Ernie Ball S-10 right now with a BL910 measured at 32kohms and it howls and whails like Godzilla and is very warm has good string separation with a bottom end that like kicking King Kong in the gonads,I like a fat rich tone thats round and this steel is all aluminum, hollow with a maple neck. I will give Mr. Wallace the job , I am sure he can do a good job with this from you all's input. Thanks my good friends. Merry Christmas
Dwight |
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James Quackenbush
From:
Pomona, New York, USA
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Posted 27 Dec 2008 6:21 am
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Dwight,
WOW !!!....Your last post really through me for a loop !!!.....You describe the BL 712 as "warm and articulate" and the GL 12-1 as "not as warmer articulate but close " .... I think that the BL is articulate all right , but warm is not a word that I would use to describe it .....The GL 12-1 on the other hand is MUCH warmer to me , but not as articulate .... It just goes to show you that tone IS in the ears of the beholder .....One thing we DO agree with is that Jerry Wallace is the man when it comes to single coil pickups .....Between his pickups and the older Emmons single coils , there aren't any around that can touch them IMHO .....Jim
As far are the strength of the pickup , every pickup maker has a different way of making their pickups ....I can generally go by this ....The higher the strength of the pickup , the more bassy/mellow my tone will be ......Then you go to Bill Lawrence pickups , and he shoots that idea right out the window !!!......LOL !!!
With Jerry Wallace's pickups , I can surely hear a 1k difference in pickups on any of my steels ....It sounds diffefent , and it also FEELS different to me ....The lower the power, the thinner the tone and the more harmonic the tone gets ...There IS however a happy medium where the lows and highs seem very balanced .....For me that medium is 17.5k on a single coil pickup ...It has just enough bottom end to be present , but not muddy, and the highs have just enough to be present ,but not shrill .....The mids are very balanced with the lows and highs ..... I also like a coil tap to bring the pickup down to 16k or so .....This gives me those nice "airy" highs and an acoustic tone that I like so much for some material that I do .....YMMV .......Jim |
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Dwight Lewis
From:
Huntsville, Alabama
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Posted 27 Dec 2008 11:25 pm BL versus GL
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Yeah James, the guitar I had these pickups on were the MSA classic S-12 thats mostly aluminum. The GL 12-1 was almost perfect. The BL 712 had good string separation , better then the GL but a little more mid/high- low/mid kind of character. It was just as you described the BL was just more articulate and sweeter, dont get me wrong the GL does the business with a little more warmth . The GL read 25k and the BL reads 32k. I would some it up as the BL seemed to be a Hummer/single coil pickup, without any insult to Bill Lawerence. He is the Humbukerooster. I tried a BL710 in an all wood SD10 MSA and it did the same, such a sweet sound to me. But with my Ernie Ball all aluminum chassis /maple neck I use a BL910 and it has more warmth than th GL plus a good kick to the Lower freq string with separation. But you were more to the point James. Steel on brothers.
Dwight |
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