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Topic: Newbie - How To Properly Tune Up |
Chris Harvey
From:
California, USA
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Posted 14 Dec 2008 6:35 pm |
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| I've seen articles in regards to properly tuning E9. I see some people tune pedal's down, keep the thirds 440 and other a few cents flat. Nothing in stone...Is there a standard? If not, what would you recommend? |
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Jeff Hyman
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 14 Dec 2008 7:27 pm
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You said it yourself
Nothing in stone.
You know how the brand of guitar and amp and overall tone and feel contribute to your own personal playing style? How you tune does too.
My advice is to make your own chart of what sounds best to you. There are several charts you can use as starting points. See if they sound in tune to you and change what doesn't. A key objective is to get the following major triads in tune
EMaj with no pedals,
AMaj A+B,
C#Maj A+F,
BMaj Eb lever (strings 10,8,7 or 5,4,1)
DMaj with 9th string root and B Pedal w/2 lowered to D (strings 9,7,6 or 1,2,3)
If all those chords sound good, you're in tune.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12
Last edited by Larry Bell on 17 Dec 2008 5:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Ron !
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Posted 14 Dec 2008 8:16 pm
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F# -438.5
D# -437
G# -436.5
E -440
B -439.5
G# -436.5
F# -438.5
E -440
D -438.5
B -439.5
Now these are the numbers I tune in on.After doing that I might adjust them a little till I think they are right.These might be different from any other player but then again.....I am different then any other player.
If you hear my sound you know why..... 
Heaven Knows
Ron |
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Bill Dobkins
From:
Rolla Missouri, USA
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Posted 14 Dec 2008 8:36 pm
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Tune your Es to 440 and learn to do the rest by ear.
Every steel is different and will tune a little different. learn to be independant of the tuner.It can tend to be a crutch.
IMHO
_________________
Custom Rittenberry SD10
Boss Katana 100 Amp
Positive Grid Spark amp
BJS Bars
Z~Legend Pro,Custom Tele
Honor our Vet's.
Now pass the gravy. |
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Joseph Barcus
From:
Volga West Virginia
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Posted 14 Dec 2008 8:46 pm
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if you are playing beside a lead player thats not in tune then all the tuning in the world wont help. I say this because several times when I thought it was me, and for the most part everyone always looks at the steel player when something is flat. it turns out to be one of the other guitar players. thats why I always try to park myself beside the bass man. i tune 440 all the way. not much cabinet drop on the guitar im playing at this time.
_________________
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvuH7H8BajODaL_wy3_HSJQ |
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Charles Davidson
From:
Phenix City Alabama, USA
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Posted 14 Dec 2008 10:48 pm
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When everybody sounds out of tune,ask [be nice,don't want to piss him off]the BASS man to check his tuning,If he's out a LITTLE bit,your sound will suck. unless your playing with a doghouse bass,If he's not REALLY good,just forget it.DYKBC.
_________________
Hard headed, opinionated old geezer. BAMA CHARLIE. GOD BLESS AMERICA. ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVIST. SUPPORT LIVE MUSIC ! |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 15 Dec 2008 9:18 am
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The time honored traditional way to tune an all-pull E9 pedal steel by ear is:
1. Take the root note of the tuning, E (strings 4 and 8 on E9), and tune that note alone to a tuning reference (tuning fork, electronic tuner, keyboard).
2. Now play an E chord on strings 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, and tune all the strings so that chord sounds nice to your ears, without changing the Es on strings 4 and 8.
3. Play a B chord on strings 1, 2, 5, 7. String 5 is the reference. You have already tuned it in the previous step, so do not change it. Tune the other strings so they make a nice chord with string 5.
4. There are multiple ways to tune string 9, but the simplest is to play an E chord on strings 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, and tune string 9 so it sounds nice as the 7th of the E7 chord. Or, make a Bm chord with strings 7, 9, and 10. Tune string 9 so it sounds good as the minor 3rd of that chord.
5. Press the A and B pedals to make an A chord on strings 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10. Strings 4 and 8 are unaffected by those pedals, and have already been established as your reference strings, so do not change them. Tune the pedal stops on the other strings to make a nice sounding A chord with the unchanged strings 4 and 8.
6. Press pedals B and C to make an F#m chord on strings 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. Tune the C pedal stops on strings 4 and 5 to sound nice with that chord, and do not change strings 3, 6, 7.
7. If you have an F lever (raises the Es ½ step), activate it with the A pedal to make a C# chord on strings 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10. Tune the F lever stops on strings 4 and 8 to sound nice with that chord without changing any other strings or stops.
8. If you have an E lower lever (lowers the Es ½ step), activate it to make a G#m chord on strings 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10. Tune the stops on strings 4 and 8 so that chord sounds nice, without changing any other strings or stops.
9. Any other pedal or lever stops are tuned by the above principles. Find the most common chord the change is part of, and tune the stops to that chord without changing any other strings or stops.
Normally, you will only have to go through the first 4 steps to tune your open strings. The pedal and lever stops on most modern steels are very stable and only have to be tuned occasionally to adjust for minor slippage or string aging.
If you tune to chords by ear as above, and then check with a chromatic tuning meter, you will see many variances from the straight up meter tuning. Mostly that is due to the fact that you have tuned the instrument to itself by the age old natural harmonic tuning system called Just Intonation (JI), which is used by the “whole world” of musicians who set their note-to-note intonation by ear – orchestral strings, horns, vocalists. The meter is giving you a more dissonant tuning system called Equal Temper (ET), which is a compromise required with the minority of instruments with fixed pitch – keyboards, fretted strings, harps.
A small part of the variance from ET may be because of a pedal steel mechanical problem called cabinet drop. When you activate raise pedals or levers, the extra tension takes up some mechanical slack in the guitar, and that causes unraised strings to go slightly flat. While picking the E on string 4 or 8, watch a meter while you press the A and B pedals. The amount of cabinet drop is different on each guitar. The Newman tuning chart, and the pedal steel presets in the Peterson tuner, adjust for this assuming a sort of average cabinet drop. If you follow the directions above, and write down what a meter says after the fact, you can have your own chart adapted to your own guitar.
Cabinet drop mostly affects only the strings when played open at the nut. Your ear and bar will automatically adjust when playing with the bar. You can minimize the cabinet drop problem on the open strings by splitting the difference of the cabinet drop between the open E chord, and the pedaled A chord. Measure the amount of drop by seeing how much the E on string 8 drops when you press the A and B pedals. Add half of the drop to the E strings when first tuning them to the reference in step 1. If you then proceed with the rest of the steps, it will automatically subtract half of the drop from the A chord with the A and B pedals. Thus, each open chord at the nut will be only half off, and both will sound as near as they can to the correct open pitch.
As for playing with fixed pitch fretted guitars and keyboards, many steelers tune JI by ear as above and manage just fine. Their ears learn to adjust the bar to fit with the other instruments. But there can be conflicts when playing open strings at the nut. Some steelers fine tune somewhere between what their ears tell them is JI and what the meter would have them tune to. This mostly affects the 3rds of chords.
Okay, here’s the idiot’s guide I use for tuning the E9 open strings passably for most guitars in situations where I can’t hear and have to tune by sight to a meter:
1 F# 441 (+4 cents)
2 D# 438 (-8 cents)
3 G# 438 (-8 cents)
4 E 441 (+4 cents)
5 B 441 (+4 cents)
6 G# 438 (-8 cents)
7 F# 441 (+4 cents)
8 E 441 (+4 cents)
9 D 444 (+16 cents)
10 B 441 (+4 cents)
So for the open strings, you really only have to memorize 3 numbers: tonics and 5ths are 441, 3rds are 438, and the 7th is 444.
A pedal stops: C# 436 (-16 cents)
B pedal stops: A 439 (-4 cents)
C pedal: F# 437 (-12 cents), C# 437 (-12 cents)
F lever: F 433 (-24 cents)
E lower: D# 438 (-8 cents)
The F#s can’t be right with both the open string B chord, and the BC pedal F#m chord. 439 (-4 cents) is a good compromise.
This kind of simplified chart really is good enough for most purposes. You don’t really need those 0.1 Hz (0.4 cents) adjustments in the Newman chart. A rule of thumb is that anything within 5 cents (1.25 Hz) of the correct pitch is not noticeable while playing. |
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Ron !
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Posted 15 Dec 2008 10:36 am
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very cool right up David.
Not a lot of people have a strobe tuner and do it the old fashioned way like me.
However that is a nice tuning you got there.
You helped this fo'bro out a lot more then I did. 
Ron |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 15 Dec 2008 2:54 pm
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| I keep it on file. I just copied it from the last time someone asked. Unfortunately, a lot of new players start without a good teacher who can show them how to tune by ear. It's kind of a long write up, but it only takes 5 minutes of the first lesson to show somebody how to do this without chasing your tail in circles. |
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Damir Besic
From:
Nashville,TN.
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Posted 15 Dec 2008 7:40 pm
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straight 440 everything...no bull ,no messing around, you can either play in tune or you can`t....
Db
_________________
www.steelguitarsonline.com |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 15 Dec 2008 9:05 pm
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With everything tuned 440 I can't. With the instrument tuned to itself by ear, I can...no bull.  |
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Damir Besic
From:
Nashville,TN.
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Posted 16 Dec 2008 7:47 am
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tune the thing any way you like,find what works for you the best, you can either play in tune or you can`t... if you tune by ear and it works for you, great , that`s all that matters...
Db
_________________
www.steelguitarsonline.com |
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Joe Miraglia
From:
Jamestown N.Y.
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Posted 16 Dec 2008 10:17 am
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| If player- A- tunes his steel his way saying he is in tune,and player -B- tunes it the way he hears it,than when player -B- hears player -A- would he say man your out of tune.Player -A -said,no you're out of tune -B-. Player -C- said I'm out of here. Joe |
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Don Brown, Sr.
From:
New Jersey
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Posted 16 Dec 2008 12:22 pm
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Joe,
It's usually found that when playing with good musicians, each knows exactly how they need to tune to sound in tune. It's usually the one's who aren't all that good who don't play in tune, because They don't know they're playing out of tune to begin with."  |
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Joe Miraglia
From:
Jamestown N.Y.
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Posted 16 Dec 2008 12:32 pm
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Don- now I get it,A+B=C You are right,Don. Joe
www.willowcreekband.com hear my band if you would like, on THE BAND page. on our web site |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 16 Dec 2008 1:05 pm
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| Bravo Bill Dobkins. |
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Steve Hotra
From:
Camas, Washington
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Posted 16 Dec 2008 1:32 pm
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From a beginner's perspective, this is great information. I'm taking 2x a month lessons, and I review tuning every once in awhile.
My question:
If you tune your strings to 440, don't you go up or down a few cents, based upon the Newman tuning chart?
I end up tuning by ear, and with several chords, pedals engaged as well. I end up being able to play and not get distracted by the slight differences.
As a long time guitar player with perfect pitch, it drives me nuts when I play with other guitarists who don't tune up. 
_________________
Guitars: Rittenberry SD S-10, Gretsch Black Falcon. Effects: Wampler Paisley, Strymon Timeline, Sarno Earth Drive.
Fractal FM9
Amps: Mesa Express 5:25, Jazzkat Tomkat & Boss Katana head / various cabs. |
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Gary Preston
From:
Columbus, Ohio, USA
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Posted 16 Dec 2008 3:28 pm
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This subject comes up very often and i do understand why . I think i have tried all the tunings that are out there . The conclusion that i came up with ( right or wrong ) is that one guy will say that i tune my steel straight 440 . Another i use the Newman tuning,another i use Lloyds tuning , another i use Buddies harmonic tuning ,etc ,etc . I don't care how you tune your guitar someone will think you are out of tune ! I think if you tune your ''E'S'' with pedals down to 440 and then tune the rest of the strings to where they sound '' sweet '' to that--it will be close . I know that there are those that will say if you tune the way that i just said you wont be in tune with the keyboard player ! Let me conclude by saying this when i hear a steel that is tuned straight up 440 it is not a good sound to me ! I hope we all understand that our ideas aren't the only ones out there ! So keep on turning the keys until she sounds good to you thats all there is ! G.P.  |
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Don Brown, Sr.
From:
New Jersey
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Posted 16 Dec 2008 4:00 pm
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Thanks Joe, I'll be sure to give a listen. Thanks for the invite.
I'm working on getting something to throw on Youtube so folks can keep the mice away while they give a listen to this old, non playing, has been.
I've got a couple of AW4416's, but I'm lacking the needed skill and knowledge, to go along with figuring everything out, (as there certainly seems to be a whole lot to have to figure out) before I plug either of them in to attempt using them. The recordings I've been in on, didn't require me to do anything other than play the steel parts.
Maybe I should have crawled, before I leaped.. 
Chris,
All the advice I've read here has all been true in one form or another. You could ask 15 players and get 15 different answers, and they'd all be correct. So you'll definitely have enough to put it this way.
On YOUR guitar, if tuned with the E's at 440, it sounds in tune, "with others" Remember, it's not simply your guitar being in tune. It's being in tune (as close as humanly possible) to whatever other instruments might be in the group. Compensators might help, but in the end result, it's most definitely up to the player himself/herself, whether or not it's played in tune.
Fact is that there is NO instrument that's in perfect tune anyway. So, close is about all you can get. However, you can be close enough so the human ear likes what it's hearing, as opposed to it being so far off, that it's not liked.
Others may disagree. But, that's how I've always found it to be, even on 6 string, fiddle or whatever else it happens to be.
Don |
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Steve Hotra
From:
Camas, Washington
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Posted 16 Dec 2008 6:01 pm
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Thanks for the answers.
Steve
_________________
Guitars: Rittenberry SD S-10, Gretsch Black Falcon. Effects: Wampler Paisley, Strymon Timeline, Sarno Earth Drive.
Fractal FM9
Amps: Mesa Express 5:25, Jazzkat Tomkat & Boss Katana head / various cabs. |
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Chris Harvey
From:
California, USA
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Posted 17 Dec 2008 8:42 am Thank You all
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| I just wanted to thank all of you for your input and for dealing with these nebwbie questions. I've really become engrossed with this instrument over the last year and thankfully have had a teacher local. His tuning is similar to several posted, but I wanted to get a collective feel. Coming form the world of 6 string where 440 is set, this poses yet another departure from MY norm |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 17 Dec 2008 9:25 am
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You know, after reading through this thread something dawned on me.
Telling people to just 'tune by ear' doesn't solve the problem for them. More than likely, the reason why they ask how to go about tuning a pedal steel is that they tried and COULDN'T TUNE BY EAR.
I agree that a good player should have a sufficiently well developed ear to be able to tune from a pitch pipe or tuning fork, but not a student. With chromatic tuners costing less and less, it is a good teaching tool if used properly. Learning to tune by ear requires that the player know what 'in tune' sounds like. Having a chart that shows how to use the tuner allows that student to HEAR how it should sound when the guitar and all pulls are in tune.
Just an observation.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12 |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 17 Dec 2008 11:10 am
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Larry, that would be true for a rank beginner who doesn't play any other instrument. But the vast majority of new steelers already play other instruments, usually guitar. Maybe things are changing with everyone using idiot proof electronic tuners, but most experienced guitar players can tune their guitar by ear. Tuning steel by ear is no different, except there are more strings and all the pedal and lever stops. The added complications just require you to use a logical order for tuning things, starting with the proper reference strings, and stepwise tuning other reference strings to those, and always tuning pedal and lever stops to the proper reference strings without changing those references later in the process. That's why I posted a stepwise procedure.
Tuning by ear really is the simplest method. It's what steelers did for decades before there were cheap, portable chromatic tuners. It just requires you to tune a few chords in the proper order. Most musicians with moderate experience can tune a chord to sound right. If you don't have ears trained well enough for that, I don't see how you can play this fretless instrument at all. Ear tuning is as quick or quicker than watching a meter to tune. It's the same number of strings and stops either way. When you're done, you have your instrument tuned to it's own amount of cabinet drop, it's own copedent, and to your own ears.
The only draw back is that it's difficult to do with a lot of extraneous noise going on. So tune carefully by ear at home, and then use a meter to write that down. That's how Jeff Newman got his chart (Lloyd Green tuned his Sho-Bud, and Jeff checked a meter and wrote it down). If you have a tuner that can make custom tuning files, program that in. Even if you can't program it in, after you use your chart to tune a few times, you learn the pattern and it sticks with your memory (provided you have rounded things off reasonably and don't try to carry the settings out to ridiculous decimal places that can't be heard by anyone).
I don't think most beginning steelers can't tune chords by ear. I think the problem arises when they try to use a straight up meter, and then tweak with their ears without maintaining the proper reference strings and tuning in the proper order. You end up chasing your tail, and there is always something that is out.
There is actually a lot of latitude in tuning a pedal steel. After all, the very top pros say they differ in how they tune some notes by as much as 16 cents (4 Hz). They all think they sound good, and we listeners don't seem to be able to tell the difference. And some people tune to a reference with the pedals up, some pedals down, which can put some main chords off by 4-8 cents (1-2 Hz), depending on how much cabinet drop there is. Some people tune pure JI by ear, some pure ET by a meter, some somewhere in between according to their own ears. Many people tune their E9 neck close to JI and their C6 neck ET. Somehow everybody thinks whatever they do, no matter how different, works. If all the different methods really work, then there really is a lot of latitude in what works.
But you can't just blindly trust that what works for somebody else and their instrument will work for your own instrument and ears. You have to try the different approaches for yourself, hear the differences, and choose what you can best live with in terms of both the sound and the convenience. |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 17 Dec 2008 11:18 am
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| Tab: |
On E9th Pedal Steel>
Our open tuning is an E tuning with no pedals and a "A" tuning with pedals down.
We are so used to tuning to E 440 but the rest of the world is tuned to A 440.
So if you tune your guitar to E 440 and play an open A chord with pedals down; than you are out of tune with the rest of the world because your "A" note(chord) will be flat (Mainly because of the pull on the guitar when pushing pedals; will drop notes).
So since I and the rest of us are used to tuning to the E note on a Pedal steel guitar from the start; what I would suggest is to push "a" and "b" pedals down and while down; pick your "E" note(highest open "E") and tune it to 440 on your tuner. Now let off your pedals and play that "E" note again and look at where it now lays on your tuner(usually sharp to 440); and that is your "NEW" E note and go ahead and retune the rest of your guitar to that E note reference like your used to(and now with pedals down; your "A" note will be in tune to E440 because your pedals down "E" note is 440.
So the way it turns out for your particular guitar is how much difference there is in the way your guitar re-acts to the pedals pushed.
So now in all probability your open E reference is sharp to E 440; but your "A" chord is now tuned to "A" 440 and you will play in better tune than you ever have; if your not already doing this. It is ok to the ear to be slightly sharp.....but it is never ok to be flat. Sharp adds excitement; and Flat adds Death>to the music.
I alway tune my guitar by ear; as Tom Brumley once told me: "Ricky if you always practice on tuning your guitar by ear; than you are practicing on playing in tune and that is the goal here"!!!.
I do have the notes somewhat memorized where they lay on my tuner for my guitar, for the times that I don't get to make any noise at the gig or don't have time or can't hear. But finding out how your guitar tunes to "A" 440 is VERY important.
Another little practice thing I do at home when I ever practice; is I never practice with reverb and after tuning my steel; I will turn on my metronome that has a "A" 440 pitch to it; and I just warm up and play along with that "A" pitch going and you can play in key of A or E or D or C and I really listen to playing in tune with that pitch while I warm up or work on what ever.
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E9th Pedal steel tuning proceedure
First you tune your "A" note to 440 then with
pedals down tune your "E" note to that "A" 440
note. Now you have the new "E" note reference to
"A" 440.
Tuning the open tuning.
Tune the other E note(4and8)
Tune the G#'s (3and6)to E
Tune the B's (5and10)to E
Tune the F#'s (1and7)to B
Tune the D# to B(2nd string)
Tuning the pedals and knee levers
Tune the A pedal(5and10) to the E note
Tune the B pedal(3and6)to the E note("A"440)
Tune the C pedal(4and5)to the A note
Tune E lower knee(4and8)to the B note
Tune E raise knee(4and8) to the A pedal
Tune D note(9th string) to and "A" note
Tune D# lower 1/2 tone to 9th string
Tune D# lower whole tone to A pedal
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_________________
Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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