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Topic: Just curious...Emmons question? |
Pat Comeau
From:
New Brunswick, Canada
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Ron !
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Posted 12 Dec 2008 12:42 am |
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| P/P....'66 |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 12 Dec 2008 1:30 am
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Best built and best sounding to your ears are different things.
I prefer the sound of the early Wraparounds with the fat early finger, smaller axles and the hollow chambers under the pickups to make room for the pots mounted in the necks. These are 1964s. The necks are also hollow with no ribs. Let's face it, pickups -- especially these older pickups, are somewhat microphonic and the hollow chambers add overtones that I like. I have a very primitive Emmons -- #2 -- that has pickups that are a quarter inch taller than later Emmons single coils and the pickups are mounted directly to the cabinet rather than suspended from the neck as on later guitars. That guitar has a spooky tone. To my ears my 1965s have fewer overtones and are not as open. Maybe the 9/16ths axles and newer finger design has something to do with it, or the lack of hollow chambers?
But, the leverages on the first guitars are not as advantageous as on later instruments, so these guitars can play smoothly when set up correctly, but not as smoothly as later guitars that featured longer pedal cranks, different cross shaft positions and more rod slot choices in the fingers.
While I mostly have Wraparounds, I also really like the Bolt-on sound as well. I have three Bolt-on versions. I have a November 1964 Bolt-on/Wraparound with wood necks -- a shortened Wraparound neck with the axles mounted on top of the Wraparound neck piece. Then I have a red belly Bolt-on on a Wraparound body but with normal Bolt-on cast necks where there is a ledge machined for mounting the changer. And, finally a normal 1966 Bolt-on that is all normal metal neck Bolt-on. The 1966 plays quick and light, thanks to Mike Cass.
To my ears, I lose interest in Emmons guitars when the pickups get beefier than 14-15K and prefer 12.5 to 13.
Any Emmons can play well. Mike Cass does my work, and it is always excellent. Mike recently rebuilt Wraparound #5 (764005) for me to completely redo the work an "Emmons expert" did and that guitar is incredible now. Very open sounding.
I don't have much experience with Cut Tails, but I am sure you would be very happy with any Emmons. I just really prefer black mica guitars that are red underneath. |
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Brian Henry
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Posted 12 Dec 2008 3:44 am
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LEGRANDE 2006
_________________
LOOKOUT MOUNTAIN GEORGIA |
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Barry Gaskell
From:
Cheshire, UK
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Posted 12 Dec 2008 5:06 am
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Hi Guys
For it's overall playability, reliability and sound, The SKH (black of course)
Barry |
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Tim Bridges
From:
Hoover, Alabama, USA
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Posted 12 Dec 2008 10:07 am
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'66 Bolt-on; black of course.  |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 12 Dec 2008 11:29 am
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| I keep hearing that black guitars sound best. Isn't the Buddy Emmons tone we all go gaga over, on the songs he recorded with "the Blade"? I believe that is a Rosewood guitar. |
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Tom Quinn
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Posted 12 Dec 2008 12:01 pm
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| The 6165 Pro II... |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 12 Dec 2008 12:54 pm
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"I keep hearing that black guitars sound best. Isn't the Buddy Emmons tone we all go gaga over, on the songs he recorded with "the Blade"? I believe that is a Rosewood guitar."
That just goes to prove how good he really is - getting such a great sound out such a rotten-colour of guitar! 
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 12 Dec 2008 1:35 pm
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| I think a pink with lavender polka dots probably would be the best. Anyone want to try? |
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Jeff Bradshaw
From:
Leslieville, Alberta - Canada
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Posted 12 Dec 2008 6:09 pm
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| Quote: |
I have a very primitive Emmons -- #2 -- that has pickups that are a quarter inch taller than later Emmons single coils and the pickups are mounted directly to the cabinet rather than suspended from the neck as on later guitars. That guitar has a spooky tone. To my ears my 1965s have fewer overtones and are not as open. Maybe the 9/16ths axles and newer finger design has something to do with it, or the lack of hollow chambers?
But, the leverages on the first guitars are not as advantageous as on later instruments, so these guitars can play smoothly when set up correctly, but not as smoothly as later guitars that featured longer pedal cranks, different cross shaft positions and more rod slot choices in the fingers.
While I mostly have Wraparounds, I also really like the Bolt-on sound as well. I have three Bolt-on versions. I have a November 1964 Bolt-on/Wraparound with wood necks -- a shortened Wraparound neck with the axles mounted on top of the Wraparound neck piece. Then I have a red belly Bolt-on on a Wraparound body but with normal Bolt-on cast necks where there is a ledge machined for mounting the changer. And, finally a normal 1966 Bolt-on that is all normal metal neck Bolt-on. The 1966 plays quick and light, thanks to Mike Cass. |
Chris, would you please post some pictures of these guitars? Thanks. .jeff |
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Don Brown, Sr.
From:
New Jersey
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Posted 12 Dec 2008 6:23 pm
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| Hey Chris L., I agree with you on the old single coils. My GES has 10.81K's on both necks, tapped off at 6.18K.. I never used the taps much, as it was a bit too thin for me, but it would give you the emmons sound, while more on the side of the Bud at the 10.81 with great body, and excellent separation as well. Don |
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robert kramer
From:
Nashville TN
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Posted 12 Dec 2008 9:41 pm
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For the sake of argument, I don’t think there is a “best” year Emmons guitar. I think every year & model is of equal distinction. The Emmons guitar has evolved through the years just as steel players have adapted there styles and tones to suit the times. The Wraparound tone (examples: Ray Price LP’s “The Other Woman,” “Another Bridge To Burn” and “Touch My Heart”) was ground breaking and very influential in ‘64 to ‘66. The “Blade/cuttail” sound of Buddy Emmons’1968 model (examples: “Emmons Guitar Co.” and “A Trip in the Country” is equally as important and influential in starting many steel players on there way. The ‘70’s models are not mentioned as much but were used on countless hit records during a very productive decade for country music. An example would be the mid 70’s/18K guitars Weldon Myrick cut with. Starting in the late ‘70’s, Sonny Garrish used a wood neck, bolt on model for his work (check out Gene Watson’s “No One Will Ever Know.”) Here is Tommy White getting world class tone from a late model P/P:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZoPTJNmiCw
In the early ‘80’s, Weldon Myrick used black SKH LeGrande on the Opry which had a killer tone. Everybody remembers Emmons’ Rosewood SKH he used for touring,TV and on recordings:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXdPDrCXMdg&feature=related
For an example of a LeGrande III with 108’s, check out Steve Palousek’s arrangement of “Night Life.”
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewProfile&friendID=206733216
My point in all this is there are remarkable guitars and remarkable players for every year Emmons guitar.
As for the early 70's Fatback models: if your going to work a night club - this is the guitar you want to be sitting behind. |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 12 Dec 2008 11:00 pm
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Totally subjective. I have owned a bunch of them and
played even more, p/p's and LeGrandes. My favorite is the '98 LeGrande I use most of the time. I guess
its the combination of how it sounds AND how it plays. If a guitar responds the way you want it to and sounds like you expect, then you can't ask for more. (Oh..and it's black)
_________________
LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Fender Twin Tone Master, Session 400, Harlow Dobro, R.Q.Jones Dobro |
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Don Brown, Sr.
From:
New Jersey
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Posted 13 Dec 2008 3:18 am
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Pat, since your original question was in two parts:
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what would be the best Emmons guitar build?...and what year?
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In all sincerity, since it's a two part question:
Part 1: would be any (year Emmons) that Buddy was sitting behind one.
Part 2: Read part 1:
Note:
Had Buddy's name been on anything else, that's what would still be the most popular among steelers today as well.
Bottom line is, Buddy's popularity, along with his playing, made the steel.. The steel didn't make Buddy.
It's like anything else, most people want to own or play, whatever it is they think will make them one of the best out there. However, that's simply not what makes a player.
Truth is, there's not a steel in the world, that can or will, make any player sound (or play) any better, than what the player themselves are capable of sounding like anyway. Try as they may.
By the same tokem, how many that's bought ZUM since J.H.'s playing one, has sounded like J.H.  |
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Craig A Davidson
From:
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA
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Posted 13 Dec 2008 5:15 am
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| Richard Sinkler wrote: |
| I keep hearing that black guitars sound best. Isn't the Buddy Emmons tone we all go gaga over, on the songs he recorded with "the Blade"? I believe that is a Rosewood guitar. |
That sound was from a black push-pull. That is if you are referring to the Touch My Heart guitar. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 13 Dec 2008 10:12 am
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He said the 'Blade' - that's a rosewood mica guitar.
Didn't we go through all this only a couple of weeks ago on here?
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Craig A Davidson
From:
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA
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Posted 13 Dec 2008 7:20 pm
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| I took it to mean that wasn't that the axe with the tone. The original one with killer tone was the black one before the Blade. Buddy had already done some tunes with the black one before he got the Blade. Touch My Heart and A Way To Survive were just two. And yes we have beaten this topic to death. It is not the color anyway, it is the hands and heart. Buddy sounded good on his Sho-Bud also. Night Life comes to mind. Oh yeah and the MCI and the Sierra, Derby, JCH, and the Zum. If it was the color black, why did John Hughey sound so good years ago with Conway and he had a laquer push-pull? Another example would be the Red Emmons Mike Johnson played all those years with Bill Anderson. |
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Ulf Edlund
From:
Umeå, Sweden
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Posted 14 Dec 2008 8:18 am
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Without doubt it's the 1983 SKH 
_________________
1983 Emmons D10 SKH, Carter SD10, Nashville 112, Session 500, ProfexII, Lapsteels, GT-Beard reso, guitars of all kinds...
http://www.myspace.com/ulfedlund |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 14 Dec 2008 11:31 am
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Jeff Bradshaw
When I get #2 and #8 back from being out on loan I will take pictures of their unusual features.
Number two is the oldest living unmolested, unmodified, original parts Emmons.
Chris |
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Jeff Bradshaw
From:
Leslieville, Alberta - Canada
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Posted 14 Dec 2008 5:15 pm
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| Thanks a lot Chris Lucker. ...Jeff b |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 15 Dec 2008 8:29 am
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I don't think it is true that the Emmons p/p has a huge following only because Buddy made and played it. It has unquestionably killer tone that is unique. It was the first changer that could both raise and lower the same string. It was the pioneer with durable formica finish. And the the mechanics were very stable and stayed in tune exceptionally well for the era when it was introduced. If someone else had made it and Buddy never played it, I think it would have a cult following something like the ZB, only bigger.
I don't have a lot of experience with the different models and years, but they all sound similar to me when others play them. All of the changes over the years were considered improvements by the manufacturer, and not merely to save money. The subtle differences between the models (and even different guitars of the same model) don't seem as big to me as the differences between all of them and every other pedal steel ever made. |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 15 Dec 2008 8:35 am
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I agree with David. Guys like Hal Rugg, John Hughey, Jimmie Crawford, Weldon Myrick, Dickie Overbey, Sonny Garrish . . . . and on and on . . . didn't play Emmons guitars because Buddy played one. They played one because there were really only a few brands and they liked the way the Emmons made THEM sound, not the way it made Buddy sound.
It is noteworthy that only a few of those actually continued playing the original Emmons design once ZumSteel, Mullen, and other brands emerged. Buddy switched to the all pull LeGrande as soon as it was available and only rarely has been seen playing the Blade since then.
Why do ya s'pose that is?
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12 |
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Tommy Shown
From:
Denham Springs, La.
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Posted 23 Dec 2008 1:31 am
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1984 Emmons P/P
tommy shown |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 23 Dec 2008 6:12 am
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| David Doggett wrote: |
| I don't think it is true that the Emmons p/p has a huge following only because Buddy made and played it. |
Maybe not, but I think most will admit that Buddy's playing had a huge effect on it's popularity.
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| It had the first changer that could both raise and lower the same string. |
Nope, sorry. That's another myth. |
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