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Topic: What to buy? |
Louie Warren
From:
Sumerduck, VA, USA
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Posted 25 Nov 2008 3:19 pm |
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Ok... I have been adamant for 8 years about having non-pedal steels and having no room for them, however... IF I was able to afford buying one, where would be a good start? I had an Emmons S10 (3P/1K) back in the 70s, that I sold (like a DA) for $300. and I'm fairly familiar with how it all works; it's like a bicycle, right? 
I am assuming that a majority of today's country is E9th... that C6 us very seldom used. So... a single 10, 12? (Robert Randolph plays a 13?) What are the differences? Benefits? Cons? Since my steel playing is a part time thing, I am assuming the simpler the better. I have always wanted a D10 so I can have E9 and C6... but reality and lack of money has smacked me in the face... Just thinking out loud. Thanx in advance for all the information. |
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Charles Curtis
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Posted 25 Nov 2008 3:40 pm
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| How far are you from Orange, Va? I'd visit Billy Coopers Music store and talk with him. There's a lot of psg on the floor, amps etc. |
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Brick Spieth
From:
San Jose, California, USA
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Posted 25 Nov 2008 6:13 pm
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Having just done this here are the choices:
A used Carter Starter $400-$600.
A new student model from GFI or Stage One or others: $900-$1200
A used pro. There have been some BMI, MSA, Carters, etc on the forum here for $1200-$1700. The older the guitar, the more wary I would be.
Starters can have their issues, but they will do the job. A used Stage One, etc, will be an upgrade, but depending on age and condition can be tantalizing close to an older or even newer pro S10.
Anything less than a pro guitar will leave you wanting one eventually.
As always, most any workable PSG is better than no PSG at all.
All this from a newbie of six months. |
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A. J. Martinez
From:
Ca.
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Posted 25 Nov 2008 6:28 pm
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| Buy a Wilcox...alot of guitar for the money! |
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Bobby Boggs
From:
Upstate SC.
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Posted 25 Nov 2008 7:29 pm
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| Quote: |
| I had an Emmons S10 (3P/1K) back in the 70s, that I sold (like a DA) for $300. |
According to Inflation Calculator.
What cost $300 in 1975 would cost $1144.23 in 2007.
Looks like a smart move. Best of luck with your search. ..bb[/quote] |
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Louie Warren
From:
Sumerduck, VA, USA
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Posted 25 Nov 2008 8:32 pm
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Thanx to everyone for their replies... as I said, I'm still a newbie... I've taken a PSG sabbatical from 77 until now. I want the most bang for the buck. I've owned the Emmons S10 I spoke of, and an old Fender dual 8 (cable). Let both of them go for near nothing and wish I had, at least, the Emmons back now. Also let a Rickenbacker T8 go that I REALLY wish I had now.
My biggest questions are still... why 12 strings? Can I get by with a 10? An 8? Is E9 the best choice? Does a universal allow me to play anything but E9? I'm very illiterate when it comes to music. I can play ok, just don't know the terms and theory. |
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Louie Warren
From:
Sumerduck, VA, USA
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Posted 25 Nov 2008 8:33 pm
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| Charles Curtis wrote: |
| How far are you from Orange, Va? I'd visit Billy Coopers Music store and talk with him. There's a lot of psg on the floor, amps etc. |
I guess I'm about an hour from Billy's. Been there before... great shop! Met Billy and his lovely bride and also Buddy Charleton thanx to my dear departed friend Tommi Reynolds of Culpeper Music. I'll have to cruise back down there.
Thanx! |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 25 Nov 2008 9:32 pm
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Used for universal tunings so you can get the bass strings as on a C6th. Also, extended E9th for lower notes and rhythmic work in the lower register.
| Quote: |
| Can I get by with a 10? |
Of course. I think the most used number of strings on a neck is 10 strings, although 12 strings is increasing in numbers everyday due to the universal tunings.
| Quote: |
| Does a universal allow me to play anything but E9? |
A universal combines the E9th and C6th (actualy a B6th) tuning on one 12 string neck. This allows you to play all the stuff you could play on a D10 with "standard" pedal and knee lever setups for those tunings (with a few extra goodies thrown in). My reason for not going to a universal is that I have non-standard setups on my E9th and C6th tunings (extra C6th knee levers that you can't get onto a universal - of course you could probably add more pedals and levers to the standard universal if there is room). If I played the minimum setups for those tunings, I would consider a universal, but I like my goodies and am too old now to start over. But, if I was just starting out, a universal would probably be my choice.
Yes, but it is very limiting depending on the type of music you wish to play. Country relies a lot on the top two strings which would probably be the two you leave out of the tuning. If I had an 8 string, I would leave the bottom two off so I could still have the top "chromatic" string (assuming E9th tuning).
| Quote: |
| Is E9 the best choice? |
Depends on the type of music you want to play. Good for country, rock. If you wish to play swing, jazz and stuff like that, you would probably want to go with a 6th type of tuning (C6th is most common)
I know these are very basic answers, but I am sure you get the picture. Others will come along and elaborate (and disagree with my explainations). |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 26 Nov 2008 8:43 am
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This is an ideal time for you to try a 12-string E9/B6 Universal. The biggest objection to them is from long-time D10 players who can't readjust to the extra strings and how they look and feel, and the missing D string of E9 (it's on a lever on a uni). Since you have been away from pedal steel long enough to loose your touch and orientation, it will be a breeze for you to start right off on a uni. Their cost, weight and size is between a single-10 and a D10.
The advantage of 12-string uni is that you have all the standard stuff of both E9 and C6 on a single neck. A uni is like E9 on the top 9 strings, and like C6 on the bottom 10. You hold the standard E9 E-lower lever to get the B6 mode (same as C6, only a half-step lower). Some people have a lock on that change so they can play the 6th mode without holding the lever. Others (self included) prefer to play without the lock so you can play a chord from any mode at any time (the one-big-tuning approach).
A uni will let you refamiliarize yourself with E9, and explore B6 at your leisure. Beyond the standard changes, you can load up a uni with extra pedals and levers just as well as D10, but the options may not be exactly the same. If you later decide you want to exactly copy the setup of one of your D10 idols, you can always trade to a D10. I think it is easier to switch from uni to D10 than the other way.
If you are intimidated by 12 strings, and want to go with a traditional 10-string, the vast majority of them are E9, and that is what you would want for traditional country. There are very few single neck C6 pedal steels on the used market. Any manufacturer could make one for you, but it will be a custom guitar and will cost extra. 8-string pedal steels are antiques, and only a few very old ones are out there. I wouldn't think there is any point in considering one, unless you just happened on one for a steal.
Check out all the pedal steel manufacturer links here. All new pedal steels are very good these days. They all play well with good tone. It almost comes down to looks - and price. Watch the Forum for recent model used steels (1970s to present), and maybe place a "wanted" post. Many used steels may have minor mechanical adjustment problems, but a mechanically minded person can deal with them, if you have the patience. Some have non-standard setups that you might not want. If so, be sure you can get parts to convert to a standard setup. If you don't want to deal with repair and conversion work yourself, there are a number a pedal steel shops around the country that can do the work for you.
Good luck, and keep asking questions.
BTW, I also quit pedal steel back in the '70s. Took it up again a few years ago. Started back on S10 E9 and quickly moved to an S12 Uni, which I now love - wouldn't go back for anything. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 26 Nov 2008 9:08 am
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It's always good to get first hand knowledge from a uni 12 player. David did a very good job expanding my thoughts.
Thanks David. Your insight and help on the forum is a blessing. |
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Michael Strauss
From:
Delray Beach,Florida
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Posted 26 Nov 2008 10:51 am
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Last year when I decided to get back into PSG (after 30 yrs), I did the research and got a U12. As David said, no baggage from a D-10. Never having a D-10, I look at my U12 as one tuning. Yes you can play E9 on the top and B6 on the bottom, but you don't think like that. I just got a LDG last month and the biggest adjustment is NOT having my low E and B.
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Carter S-12U, Sho-Bud LGD (80's), Fender Jazz King, Korg Pandora Toneworks PX4D, Modulus Q6, Ampeg B5R, Lapstick Travel Guitar mod to lapsteel |
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Joseph Barcus
From:
Volga West Virginia
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Posted 26 Nov 2008 2:04 pm
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I myself dont care for a univerisal for the reason that you have to push a knee to get your D thats is the 9th string on a 10 string. that note is used alot and when I had one I found it to be extra work and figured I needed the 9th D more then the b6th. I decided to learn c6th and thats my 2 cents. as far as what to buy get a good one that holds the value, your starters will cost you more in the end because you wont get out what you pay for it. where as your emmons, zum, and other top name pro models will hold there value
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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvuH7H8BajODaL_wy3_HSJQ |
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Brett Day
From:
Pickens, SC
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Posted 26 Nov 2008 2:26 pm
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Louie, I'm sure Billy Cooper's got a great selection of great steels. E9th tuning is definitely used for a lot of country songs. There are so many great brands of steels to choose from. I play a GFI Ultra D-10 and it's wonderful.
Brett |
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