U-12 - Which knee do you lower your Es with and why

Charlie Thompson · From: South Carolina, USA

I'm getting my first U-12 and was wondering if having the Es lowered on LKR hinders your left foot on pedals 4-7. I've played standard Emmons E9 for a long time with the Es lowered on LKR. Do any of you play the pedals with your right foot?
Thanks

Bob Parins · From: Brooklyn, New York, USA

After trying it both ways, I put the E lowering lever on my RKL. It's just as you suspected; Holding that lever makes it tricky to play pedals with your left foot.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Mine is on the LKR. It's not a problem hitting the pedals.

I tried RKL for a while, but decided I preferred LKR.
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Larry Lorows · From: Zephyrhills,Florida, USA

I've used RKL for years for the same reasons that Bob stated. Larry
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Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

I use the LKR - used that as it was the way my new 71 PP Emmons was set up (and later found out it was the way Buddy had his).

There are arguments for either way.

Roual Ranes · From: Atlanta, Texas, USA

Go back to the Welcome page and click on Pedal Steel Tunings. Under E9th, check out John McClungs set-up.....you will probably understand why 4 & 8 are raised on RK. Also check out Reece's set-up under E9/B6 universal.

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

RKL
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Josh Daugherty · Posted 24 Nov 2008 4:58 am

Don Sulesky · From: Citrus County, FL, Orig. from MA & NH

My 1st ShoBud came with RKL and I got used to it that way.
I've tried to change but went back to RKL.
Don

Roual Ranes · From: Atlanta, Texas, USA

Josh,
Go to the Welcome page. DO NOT ENTER. Go to the top of the page and click on the block "Pedal Steel Tunings" then scroll down. That should do it.

Ernie Pollock · From: Mt Savage, Md USA

I have seen that done on the LKR, but it just does not work as well as the RKR, it should be very plain to see why. When I got my first MSA Universal 12, it had the knee lever on RKR. If your lever to lower the B's to Bb is the 'Up' lever, thats going to be tough with the E's to Eb on LKR. Make it easy on yourself & just put it on the RKR!!

Ernie Pollock Shocked

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

Question here...How many use the P4 thru P8 and associated levers without lowering the Es?

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

RKL
Because
* all the LKL's can be combined
* it's easier to combine with the far right pedals

It is very different on a U-12 vs D-10, IMHO
It is ALL personal preference

oh, and, Ed
I do use the pedal that raises 5 B to C# and 6 G# to A# for that nice IMaj --> II7 change (F#7 or F#9 open)

The other changes are not as useful with the E instead of D# -- I do let off the E to D# lever with the C#9 pedal (the one that raises 12 to C# 11 to F and lowers 7 to F) occasionally for the b3 blue note. I look for and use WHATEVER IS THERE

Slightly off the subject, I use LKR for P6 -- I simply lower 8 E to D and let off the E to D# lever. I NEVER use both feet and can get all useful combos with left foot only. That way the fatigue on the right knee is relieved often (since P6 is probably the most used C6 pedal) and the famous 'missing D string' is very easy to recover.

If I were limited to 2 knee levers one would be E to D# on RKL and the other would be 8 only E to D on LKR.
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Charlie Thompson · From: South Carolina, USA

Seems most of you prefer to lower the Es on RKL though I saw Jeff Newmann had it on RKR. It is coming to me from the factory with the Es lowered on LKR. I am used to rocking when I roll off the A pedal. So I'll need to get used to that on my right knee. Next question would be what to put on LKR?
Thanks for all your help!

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

I thought I already answered that one. Very Happy

I have two LKR's. I lower 8 to D on the one that's closest to the front of the guitar and raise 1 and 7 to G# and 2 to E on the one closest to me.

A lot of folks lower G# to F# on LKR (those who don't lower E's there -- most E9 players followed the Big E's lead on that one -- if I played 10 string I'd probably do that too)

Re: Jeff Newman
He also played the Day configuration (CBA pedals)

Re: Using ANYONE ELSE'S SETUP
Figure out what works best for YOU
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My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

I've always had mine on RKR as it's the "natural" way of doing it! Just sit in any chair and relax your legs. You'll see that your leg will fall to the right and not to the left. I was at Scotty's one year at Jeff Newman's booth and asked him this same question and that's the answer I got and I wholeheartedly agree with it. I'd never even think of having a U-12 with the E lowers on the left knee! It's a waste IMHO. With it on the right you've got complete freedom of movement of the left leg. Some Sierras have a change lock system which locks the E lowers in place but then you've lost one big advantage of having a Uni and that's being able to think of it as "one big tuning" which it is! I'd consider a double neck guitar before I'd ever get one with a locking system..........JH in Va.
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David Doggett · Posted 24 Nov 2008 9:11 am

I use Larry Bell's setup for raising and lowering the Es, and also for the E to D on LKR. Lowering the Es on RKL was the old standard for Sho-Bud E9, and many D10 players, including Paul Franklin, have it that way. It makes even more sense on a uni.

I don't think sitting in a chair and letting your leg relax and flop to the outside is a relevant test. I feel like my muscles pulling a knee in are stronger, so it seems like less effort to hold the E-lower lever that way (RKL rather than RKR). Also, as Larry says, the E-to-D lever to give the IV9 chord(functions as pedal 6 on C6) is by far the most common change playing B6. With the RKL pulling in, it is much easier for me to also pull in LKR - you're just pulling your knees together. Having one knee push out (RKR) and the other pull in (LKR) would be more difficult for me - twists my butt. But people's legs are different.

To know what your options are for LKR we need to know what all your other knee levers do.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

I'm sitting in a chair and relaxing my legs. They don't naturally go in EITHER direction, but I find it more comfortable moving it inward -- maybe I'm just pigeon toed or something.

For me, RKR seems to move my volume pedal more than RKL for some reason. Like I said before -- WE'RE ALL DIFFERENT -- that's why different folks set their guitars up differently. Only YOU can figure out what's best for you.
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

My previous question was for those that SAY they want to use it as one big tuning, and then don't because they don't use the C6 changes without lowering the Es.

Yes, we are all different, but itwould seem that the musical wants should dictate the setup. Some are just copying what has been played, and the way it was played...others are playing "what if" hence come up with different setups.

We have scales, licks, and chords to do/make/use.

Chords are, in general, the odd intervals of the diatonic scale (major).

Licks are a select series of scale notes (diatonic or chromatic).

So the questions re setup seems to be:

1.Do you want to be able to morph chords without moving the bar?

2.Do you want to be able to run scales without moving the bar?

3.Do you want to run licks without moving the bar (much)?

I happen to be a chord morpher by nature.

I,IV,V all on the same fret, then VIm,IIm,IVm on the same fret. Then 6,b7,7,b5,#5,b9,9,#9,4, etc. applied to the I,IV,V first, then to the others.

I usually start with a 6th based tuning, and go from there. This makes most folks D# my C#.

I have a lock for the Eb/D# so I can use it or not.
I have the Eb/D# maker on L>.
My Bb is on R< (can't get I7b5...but).

L^ with P1P2 gets A7...add a finger pull for AM7.

I figure that once I have defined a chord, I have defined a pocket = nice place for scales and licks.

Tom Mossburg · From: AZ,

Charlie
If your just starting I think it would be best to put it on the RKR. That gives you more room to hit the pedals with your left foot. I started with it on my RKL and got used to it there. Then switched to RKR. The pedals were much easier to hit and it was more comfortable but I was so used to having it RKL I went back to that and am playing it that way now. I think Newman was right (no pun intended) to have it on the RKR.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Just curious, what brand is the steel you are getting?
Do they offer a Lever lock?

fwiw, I lower E's on RKR and raise on LKL. This is how Jeff Newman had it at the time he wrote his book S12 Universal Volume 1, which is what was used to define my 1st S12U copedent on an Emmons S12U pp.

The Sierra S12U originally copied the Emmons setup, and raised/lowered E's on LKL/LKR... The LKR E>Eb locked the E's to Eb and then flipped up and out of the way when using B6 pedals.
This might be something to consider as you are used to E>Eb on LKR, and flipping it up and out of the way eliminates the conflict with pedals 4-7.

In the bigger picture, whatever it is, you will adapt to it and all will be fine. I think most guys would agree that within a short period of time we can adapt to any setup put in front of us.
If a steel has relativly fresh strings and generally stays in tune, the amount of strings/necks/pedal&lever-setup would not keep most from being able to gig with the axe that night.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Ed,
Could you give some specific examples of how to use the 6th tuning pedals without lowering the Es to get a chord that is useful? Just curious about exactly what you have in mind.
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

Charlie Thompson · From: South Carolina, USA

I'm getting a GFI
GFI 12 String Universal Copedent

http://www.gfimusicalproducts.com/Tables/Copedant%20Tables.htm

I believe I could learn the Es lowered on any knee So I'm looking for the easiest and most logical.
Anyone with a GFI please chime in.

I've never played a U-12 but its weird that the Es would be on the knee that would seem to hinder access to pedals 4-7.

One more question for GFI players: I understand that making a change is not difficult, can someone tell me how?

Thanks again for the help!

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

I'm more curious why Ed doesn't want to move the bar?
imho, That's like the funnest thing about the whole deal!

Bob Parins · From: Brooklyn, New York, USA

Ed-

We think of it as "one big tuning" because we switch between C6 and E9-type moves seamlessly in a single piece of music. Even in a single musical phrase. with the E9 world and C6 world smooshed together, It's not necessary to play strictly C6 stuff for a while and then strictly E9 stuff for a while. You can blend them at will. One Big Tuning!

(and yes, we use pedals 4 through 7 without lowering our E strings as well. II9 chord with the 7th pedal, and lowering the E on the 8th string to D with the 6th pedal are especially useful)

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