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Topic: can I raise the strings w/o damaging something? |
Ron Victoria
From:
New Jersey, USA
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Posted 20 Nov 2008 5:40 pm |
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My friend wants me to change the nut to play it lap style. It's a Kay round neck resonator. I strung it to open E using the correct gauge for each string. An acoustic player told me the neck can be damaged from the extra tension and that the bridge could damage the resonator. I need some advice so I don't ruin someone else's guitar.
thanks, Ron |
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Charles Dempsey
From:
Shongaloo, LA
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Posted 20 Nov 2008 7:04 pm
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A Reso buddy of mine says the same thing. Don't raise the action on a round neck. But I'm sure you'll hear from those in the know.
Charlie
_________________
Yes officer, I know I smell like beer. I'm not drinking it, I'm wearing it! |
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Lynn Oliver
From:
Redmond, Washington USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 20 Nov 2008 9:47 pm
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It shouldn't be a problem. When I started out I used a nut raiser on my pre-truss-rod Martin, and I just selected the string gauges so that the total tension was within the range the guitar was built to handle.
Assuming the same strings and tuning, raising the nut is not going to increase the pressure on the bridge. It would actually decrease it a very small amount.
Raising also the nut does not change the scale length, so the string tension is the same. The moment arm at the nut is changed, but if you look at the relative length of the vectors (compare the height of the nut to the scale length), the change in torque is not significant along the length of the neck.
The change in nut height is significant when computing the torque from the nut to the tuners, but the peg head is so short and stiff that the change in torque shouldn't be an issue there anyway.
What am I missing? |
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John Bushouse
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Posted 21 Nov 2008 12:17 am
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I dunno what you're missing. I've used a high nut on my Larrivee wooden guitar and my Morton resonator guitar, both roundnecks, for 16+ years. That includes leaving the nut on for months at a time. No damage, and the Larrivee gets regular checkups. Never had a neck problem. Or a top problem.
All of what you said, Lynn, makes sense to me. And other folks such as Rick Turner and Frank Ford have told me the same thing. |
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Mark Mansueto
From:
Michigan, USA
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Posted 21 Nov 2008 4:22 am
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Ron, in most cases you can get away with it if your guitar has a strong neck joint but you can potentially harm your guitar by jacking up the strings. How? Well, the best way I can explain it is this... you know how when you're using a socket wrench to lossen a bolt but it's too tight? So you stick a piece of pipe on the end to get more length and presto. You didn't increase your hand pressure but you were putting more torque on the bolt. The same principle applies with the guitar... the strings are at the same tension but you're stessing the neck joint to a higher degree. The higher the strings the more tention on the joint. I play it safe by tuning my roundneck to open D and use open E strings.
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John Burton
From:
Manassas, Va
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Posted 21 Nov 2008 6:40 am
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I put a nut riser on my Rogue roundneck resonator awhile back and have kept it that way ever since.
I keep it tuned open d mostly.
Besides being a roundneck, It's a biscuit type resonator, and I woudn't think the bridge would stand up to a high g tuning like a squarneck dobro (which useally have spider-bridges...something to consider).
My feeling was, it isn't THAT good of a resonator anyway, and now it sees a lot more play. (and it sounds fairly good).
anyway, I say get a nut riser..but like others have said, keep it in a "bottleneck" tuning to be safe.
Here's a rather crappy youtube video of me playing my roundneck lap-style...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtBcLXfwmxo |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 21 Nov 2008 11:46 am
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I've never thought that warnings about raised nuts and the health of the guitar had to do with any actually problem with the raising or the stringing but rather with playing the guitar with the raised nut. The stresses of applying firm deflection to the strings with the bar, unstopped by a fretboard which regulates the stresses in a bottle-neck, round neck configuration---what's the maximum string height on a round neck?----there's where your stresses are with a raised nut but without the rigidity of a square neck.
Or so I had always thought.... |
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Chris Scruggs
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 21 Nov 2008 12:04 pm
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"Bashful" Brother Oswald used a round neck Dobro with a nut extender from the 1930's until he passed a way just a few years ago. It seemed to work for him. However, he played the old Hawaiian A tuning, not the Bluegrass G tuning (the same tuning but one step apart) so maybe that made it a little less risky.
His signature model Dobro is even a round neck with a Hawaiian nut placed over the Spanish nut.
Chris |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 21 Nov 2008 12:11 pm
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| I'm pretty sure that neck is gonna bow any day now....... |
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Charles Dempsey
From:
Shongaloo, LA
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Posted 21 Nov 2008 1:49 pm
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| Mark Mansueto wrote: |
| The higher the strings the more tention on the joint. |
That was exactly what the reso guy said.
I was thinking of doing that on a Yairi DY75. His point was, "yes, but do you ever want to use it as a regular guitar again?".
He's on a board called ResoNation, and says there's been a lot of discussion on this topic there.
Charlie
_________________
Yes officer, I know I smell like beer. I'm not drinking it, I'm wearing it! |
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Lynn Oliver
From:
Redmond, Washington USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 21 Nov 2008 2:28 pm
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| Jon Light wrote: |
| ...The stresses of applying firm deflection to the strings with the bar, unstopped by a fretboard which regulates the stresses in a bottle-neck, round neck configuration... |
That wouldn't be an issue with normal technique, but I suppose if you really put your weight on the bar you could put some serious stress on the neck. Normally you just have the weight of the bar (around 5 to 6 oz.) and a slight down pressure from your hand.
Compared to a barre cord where you have to deflect all the strings enough to contact the fret, it should actually be less tension. Much less if for some reason you pressed the strings down to actually contact the fret board (can you say "excessive fret wear?").
I suspect the only real problem you would run into would be from choosing a tuning and string gauges that dramatically increased the tension on the neck. |
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Robert Murphy
From:
West Virginia
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Posted 21 Nov 2008 2:33 pm
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| I have a round neck National tricone. I called National yesterday and spoke to Don in the tech department. He said to put a new straight nut on the guitar about 1/8 higher but not to use a nut extender to play lap style. |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 21 Nov 2008 2:58 pm
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| Lynn Oliver wrote: |
That wouldn't be an issue with normal technique, but I suppose if you really put your weight on the bar you could put some serious stress on the neck. Normally you just have the weight of the bar (around 5 to 6 oz.) and a slight down pressure from your hand.
Compared to a barre cord where you have to deflect all the strings enough to contact the fret, it should actually be less tension. Much less if for some reason you pressed the strings down to actually contact the fret board (can you say "excessive fret wear?")..........
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I really believe that even the gentlest of touches of an overhand bar on a raised string setup will still be strong enough to bottom out the strings on a standard Spanish guitar neck.
HOWEVER---I'm nothing more than a dabbler on a resoguit and I will no way, no how dig in my heels and argue on a point on which I lack the expertise and experience to present myself as an expert or a working familiar.
But I'd need some serious convincing on the question of relative stresses on the neck of the round neck vs. square. As to whether even if I'm right, these stresses are more than the guitar can handle---this I do not know. The Brother Oswald story certainly puts me on shaky ground.
Last edited by Jon Light on 21 Nov 2008 2:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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John Burton
From:
Manassas, Va
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Posted 21 Nov 2008 2:58 pm
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| Robert Murphy wrote: |
| I have a round neck National tricone. I called National yesterday and spoke to Don in the tech department. He said to put a new straight nut on the guitar about 1/8 higher but not to use a nut extender to play lap style. |
That makes sense. 1/8 inch higher is plenty. The other problem I have since using a nut extender, is it marred my fretboard up next to the nut. Not a big deal as it's a cheapie reso that I'll only play lap style on. If I had a National, I would probally be more careful with it then my Rogue..
Like I mentioned before however, I believe a Tricone bridge can handle a lot more stress then a biscuit type . |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 21 Nov 2008 3:44 pm
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| hey...it's a kay!! we're not talking stradivarius here! |
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Lynn Oliver
From:
Redmond, Washington USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 21 Nov 2008 4:10 pm
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Speaking of a Strad, they used a nut raiser on a very valuable guitar for one of the Tone Poem-type projects.
The difference in stress when using a nut extender--even if you use a heavy hand on the steel--is less than changing from a light to a medium set of strings. But if it's gonna worry you, don't do it. Some guitar necks bow just from normal use, so nobody can guarantee what's going to happen.
The damage you're most likely to cause is from dropping the bar. |
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Ray Langley
From:
Northern California, USA
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Posted 19 Dec 2008 2:14 am
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| Ron, I have done this a few times. Lower the strings to Open D. Your guitar will love you for this gentle gesture. If you are tuning to Open E, you must RAISE three strings (instead of lowering 4 strings). Which way do you think would be best for the potential safety of the instrument? |
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Jude Reinhardt
From:
Weaverville, NC
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Posted 19 Dec 2008 7:29 am
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| Chris Scruggs wrote: |
"Bashful" Brother Oswald used a round neck Dobro with a nut extender from the 1930's until he passed a way just a few years ago. It seemed to work for him. However, he played the old Hawaiian A tuning, not the Bluegrass G tuning (the same tuning but one step apart) so maybe that made it a little less risky.
His signature model Dobro is even a round neck with a Hawaiian nut placed over the Spanish nut.
Chris |
Two thoughts on that. Oswald's Dobro had the shorter twelve fret neck and his "A" tuning of AC#EAC#E is one tone higher in pitch and tension than the standard "G" tuning of GBDGBD.
Jude
_________________
"If we live in fear of banjos, then the banjos have won".
"Man cannot live by bread alone, he must have Peanut Butter". - Kruger Bear |
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Carroll Hale
From:
EastTexas, USA
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Posted 19 Dec 2008 7:42 am
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| Lynn Oliver wrote: |
It shouldn't be a problem. When I started out I used a nut raiser on my pre-truss-rod Martin, and I just selected the string gauges so that the total tension was within the range the guitar was built to handle.
Assuming the same strings and tuning, raising the nut is not going to increase the pressure on the bridge. It would actually decrease it a very small amount.
Raising also the nut does not change the scale length, so the string tension is the same. The moment arm at the nut is changed, but if you look at the relative length of the vectors (compare the height of the nut to the scale length), the change in torque is not significant along the length of the neck.
The change in nut height is significant when computing the torque from the nut to the tuners, but the peg head is so short and stiff that the change in torque shouldn't be an issue there anyway.
What am I missing? |
...I am a chemist/biologist and this answer sounds like a person with a strong background in PHYSICS.....good explanation to help someone keep from damaging the instrument.....and I am sure it will be helpful... |
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Brad Bechtel
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 19 Dec 2008 8:49 am
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Without knowing what gauges you used for your open E tuning, I would say there's little chance you'll be damaging the guitar by raising the strings and using that tuning.
For what it's worth, I took the nut adapter off my Fuller Winslow (cheap biscuit resophonic guitar) and switched it back for regular guitar playing. It worked just as well as it did before I put the adapter on (about two years ago). I've changed the strings several times since then, and used both open D and open G tunings. The neck does not appear to have been damaged or warped.[/i]
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Brad’s Page of Steel
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars |
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Ron Victoria
From:
New Jersey, USA
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Posted 19 Dec 2008 10:28 am
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I use E,B,E,G#,B,E low to high and use John Ely's gauge chart for the correct string.
ron |
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Chuck Mahoney
From:
New Jersey, USA
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Posted 21 Dec 2008 3:54 pm
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| Brad Bechtel wrote: |
Without knowing what gauges you used for your open E tuning, I would say there's little chance you'll be damaging the guitar by raising the strings and using that tuning.
For what it's worth, I took the nut adapter off my Fuller Winslow (cheap biscuit resophonic guitar) and switched it back for regular guitar playing. It worked just as well as it did before I put the adapter on (about two years ago). I've changed the strings several times since then, and used both open D and open G tunings. The neck does not appear to have been damaged or warped.[/i] |
I've had the same experience as Brad with my reso. My first foray into lap style was to slap a nut extender on there. I tuned to both open D and E at different times and there was no problem with the guitar, bridge, or neck. I was using .013 gauge strings. The only issues was a slight marring of the fretboard where the nut extender was resting. Slight changes in height of the nut will not have an appreciable effect on the guitar. So, I agree with Lynn Oliver as well.
As long as the gauge you are using isn't too heavy, you should be OK.
_________________
keep on slidin' |
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Hans Henrik Rasmussen
From:
Denmark, Copenhagen
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Posted 21 Dec 2008 5:15 pm
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A couple of years ago I raised the nut on a greg bennett D-7, played it lap style for about a year and turned it back into regular again with no problems.
Then instead I raised the nut on a 30 year old epiphone and its been playing great for about a year now. I play mainly in D-tuning with light strings and use a capo if I need to go to for example E. (by the way the Epiphone sounded very dull and poor as a regular guitar, but sounds actually quite decent as lap style).
I have now gotten a Lazy River weissenborn but will keep the Epiphone lap style to fool around with. And in the coming holidays I plan to convert another old, old and dull sounding guitar to have something to fool around with at my parent's house.
Hans |
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Ray Langley
From:
Northern California, USA
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Posted 21 Dec 2008 7:50 pm
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Chuck Mahoney said: "As long as the gauge you are using isn't too heavy, you should be OK."
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I agree with Chuck, and others! My recommendation above to tune down to Open D, instead of Open E, was based on the fact that I use VERY HEAVY strings. My gauges go from .016 to .056. I forgot to mention that.  |
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