Universal 12 - Yes or No?

Chris Harvey · From: California, USA

I'm new to this instrument (closing on a year) and, after going through a Carter Starter in about 3 months, found a fantastic deal on a GFI D-10 Ultra, which I love. However, I've finally stepped up and started playing (to the best of my ability) with a group and noticed one thing real fast. The E9 neck is used on about 90% of the music I play and like (I love Tom Brumley's playing)and I usually wind up dropping my E's and playing feaux C6 for the western swing. This is great, but a also like the big fat chords you can get on the C6. I'd like to have all of the E9 capability with most of the C6 for the western swing, and those big fat strings accessible all of the time. I'm torn if I should consider a U-12 as I love the D-10 but hate to see the neck get wasted. My fear - As is get more and more accomplished I'll want all of the C6 and won't mind switching necks.

I understand much of this is personal preference but would appreciate any input. Also, are there any famous players out there who use a U-12 that I could listen to?

Bob Adams · From: Scotland, UK

hi Chris try this for size, think the middle section may float your boat!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=JoAJ0YI2lWE&feature=related

Fred Glave · From: McHenry, Illinois, USA

Yes. You can get all you need (99.99%) of what you get from a D10 all on a U12. However, some players may tell you with good reason, that on a D10 there are benefits from having other dedicated knee levers that will provide more options on the C6 neck. The average player, as well as many pros never have, need, or use those extra levers, especially at this point in your playing history. Regardless of whether or not you stay D10, or move on to U12, you'll still have to use the pedals east of the ABCs if you want to play real 6th tuning.

Bob Parins · From: Brooklyn, New York, USA

Hi Chris-

As you pointed out in your post, there are benefits and trade-offs no matter what you choose. I'm a U-12 convert, and I thought I'd share with you something that I like about them.

An often-overlooked point in this debate is that on a U-12 you can do things that you cannot do on either a C6 or E9 neck.

Using pedals 4-7 with your E strings lowered gives you the C6 stuff, but you can use these pedals without the E strings lowered as well. There's some great stuff in there that you can use when you're thinking C6 or E9 that is unique to the U-12.

Also, you get the E9 pedals and levers that can be used in the C6 world. The ability to seamlessly combine the two worlds cannot be overstated. As you progress on the U-12 you'll begin to forget what comes from the C6 tuning and what comes from E9. You'll just be playing music.

I, like you, Began on a starter steel (Maverick ) and moved into a D-10. (a Sho-Bud Pro II ) I came upon an MCI U-12 5 or so years ago, bought it and haven't looked back. Now I have 2 U-12 guitars and that's it. I'm hooked!

I hope this helps.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Here is a great sounding CD done on a Universal:

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Woops. Double deleted.

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

I debated the Ext.12 U-12 and then got the Jeff Neumann DVD for 28 bucks that explains the Universal concept, It sold me on the idea because I also like the faux C6th on E9th and I am more comfy with the B6th fret positions.
I am currently waiting for my Brand new Carter U-12 to arrive. Yee Ha !! and Black too
This is also a Bump for Herb Steiner's Swinging on E9th Vol. 1 and 2. Jim Lossberg has some good E9th stuff also.

Very Happy

Ken Metcalf
_________________
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

i'm old and love the C6 neck, even though i'm not that great at it!. if i had never had one, i would go to the U12 and learn everything that way!

David Doggett · Posted 19 Nov 2008 5:00 pm

If you are wondering what the other half of the Joe Wright medley sounds like, here it is: House of the Rising Sun.

With a uni, on E9 you lose one string (D string), and you lose one knee lever, which has to give you back that D, and so can't be used for something else. But you gain three low strings. And you have the entire B6 neck available at your finger tips all the time. On B6 you lose two levers, the one you hold to get the B6 mode, and the other one on that leg that can't be used at the same time. And you can't put changes to both necks on a single lever. You can use a lock and double sets of levers to avoid those problems, but you lose the ability to play it as one big tuning going from one mode to the other from chord to chord. You get extra strings on top - you have the equivalent of both the D and G on top of C6. And you have the entire E9 neck at your finger tips all the time.

When you forget about exactly duplicating D10 E9 and C6 and just play it as one big tuning, you have 90% of each D10 neck, which is 180% on the one neck, available all the time from chord to chord. It really is a whole new tuning capable of a huge amount of stuff that can't be done at all on D10 - and it's mostly unexplored. And I think I play more B6 stuff on uni than I would if I had to make a conscious decision to switch necks. It's a whole world of its own.

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

180 percent on one neck sounds pretty good compared to the 30 percent i get out of each neck!!

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Excellent, insightful responses

As with any choice, there are pros and cons

PRO
Everything available all the time -- 'switching necks' is easier -- you have the E9 changes that can be used with the 'P6' position on C6 (which is actually E9 on the universal). There are ways to use some of the C6 functionality on E9 and vice versa. B6 is IDENTICAL to C6 1/2 step lower on the bottom 9 strings. E9 only lacks the D string and there are two ways to get that note (raising 9 B to D or lowering 8 E to D). There are very few things that can be played on a D-10 with 8 and 5 that you can't play on a universal with 8 and 5 or 7 and 6. You can use any courses developed for either neck OR for a U12. You only have to learn one tuning -- everything relates to everything else.

CON
There are a LOT of pulls on one neck. The complexity of the setup is a mechanical challenge, making a U12 more difficult to work on than a D-10. Cabinet drop is almost always worse on a 12 string than a 10 string. Tuning, in some ways, is more challenging. For example, on a D-10 you can tune E9 by harmonics (just intonation) and tune C6 straight up to the tuner (equal temperament). You can't really do that on a U12 since the two tunings share strings/notes.

The advantages of having both tunings on one neck far outweigh the cons, FOR ME, but, like you said, it is a very personal decision.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

Michael Dulin · From: Indiana, USA

Go for the single 12 extE9 or Uni. Lighter weight, same hand position-foot&leg consistantly, bass notes...even Dobro tuning that most players haven't discovered yet. MD

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Here is something I posted a while back about this question:

I played a U12 for years before I moved to a D10. I vastly prefer the D10 for many reasons:

1. E9 tuning. When you remove the D string from the tuning you weaken what I think of as the harmonic heart of the tuning. There is a tri tone built right into the middle that is once removed on the U12. Also the E9 has a symetrical series of whole steps that open up possiblities. For instance I can play a scale pattern in G starting on the 1st fret 7th string,then sliding up a 2 frets,then crossing to the 6th string,then sliding up 1 fret. I then take that pattern and start on the 8th st 3rd fret. I then play the same pattern starting on the 9th st. In each position my basic AB pedals have a very different function. Position 1 they are a minor 3rd and perfect 5th. Position 2 they are a perfect 4th and major 6th.
Position 3 the B pedal is a tri tone to a 5th and the A pedal is major 6th to a major 7th with the D string as the root.
With the D string as its own string in the tuning I can set the E9 tuning up as a complete open major or minor pentatonic with every string in play. Also by lowering the 5th string a half step I can make 5 strings in a row into a perfect whole tone scale. Talk about voicing and phrasing options ! The E9 tuning has beautiful symetrical logic that I feel is degraded on the U12. The E9 is basicly a simple 5 note tuning that is mirrored between the lower and upper 5 strings if you think of(or tune) the 2nd string to a D. On an E9 it is easy for me to look down at the neck and see all these possibilities sitting right out in the open. In my case once I sat down at an E9 things became obvious and easy that had eluded me for years on the U12. I do understand that a U12 player can find these same notes and most of the combinations. The issue for me is the way these notes are found. The E9 is more easy for the way I think.

2. Tone. I have owned and played D10s and U12s with the exact same pickups and from the exact same builder(Franklin, Carter, Emmons PP, Mullen) and the D10's sounded better to my ear. Particularly in the lower range. I kown tone is subjective but I sat there with both and really played and recorded them.

3. Flexability. You can change whatever you want on one neck without screwing up something on the other. In my case I have a D string in the middle of my C neck that just isn't possible on a U12.

4. Buddy Emmons plays a D10. Just kidding, sorta.

There are a bunch more reasons why I personally prefer a D10. I have nothing against the U12. Just look at Joe Wright or Reese Anderson for a couple guys that play better than everybody. It just doesn't work for me.

One thing that comes up that I find rediculous and slightly offensive is the idea that long time pro players that have given there lives to the study of the instrument are somehow missing something because they don't play a U12. Outside of the mainstream it seems that the most accomplished innovative players tend to play a D10. Such as Susan Alcorn and Dave Easly. They are not limited by convention.

I could go into detail also about how the C6 tuning works better for me as a designated neck. I will say that if you are dedicated to learning to play the pedal steel you are going to need to learn the logic of the tunings. In my case a U12 complicated things and got in the way.

I think that whatever tuning that works for you is fine. The U12 has its strong points but isn't for everybody.
_________________
Bob

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Clearly, Bob brings up some excellent points.

As he stated, however much of this is subjective.

I can play 5 whole steps on adjacent strings as well. I just raise 9 to D and play whole tone, w/h or h/w diminished, or whatever is there on a 10 string (also lowering the 5th to A#, obviously). It's a great 5 string 'subtuning'.

The big issue for me with 10-string E9 was the range. I'm a guitar player and, like most six string guys, Low Guitar E is an anchor -- the solid low root (at least one good string to use as the root). E9 ending on B, which is the SECOND FRET of the NEXT TO LOWEST STRING on six string just DON'T GO DOWN LOW ENOUGH FOR ME.

Putting that D in the middle of the C6 tuning works fine on a U12. It's just a different sixth tuning -- it's C# (not D) on B6. Since that's adding the ninth scale tone, I suppose it's more properly called a 6/9 tuning. Lots of folks play variations of this tuning, which are related to nonpedal tunings used by Don Helms, Joaquin Murphey, and others In the U-12 context you can raise the C# to D on a lever (or even use that as the open tuning) and you have the 9th string from E9. The sixth tuning is the same as the Buddy Emmons / Terry Crisp (etc) variation on C6 with a D in the middle. You can use the C# in the middle and raise to D for E9 or else tune it to D and lower to C# when you lower your Es to get B6add9. I've used that tuning as a universal but didn't want to sacrifice the traditional C6 grips I'd spent so long learning. You do lose the low B but I had no problem sacrificing that. The grips weren't there where I'm used to them and it threw me off.

Sure -- it's just a matter of choice -- but many pros have played 12 string variations -- Zane Beck, Julian Tharpe (usually 14), Reece, Joe, Newman, many more -- but that doesn't mean what's best for their approach to the instrument will suit you.

You'll probably be best off doing what Bob and I both did -- try both. He chose a D-10 and I chose a U-12. We're both happy with our choices.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

John Sims · From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL

Take a look at my U-12 and it's copedant (Click on signature link). Maybe it will help you decide.

Details: First, I do not think E9th/B6th. To me it's what it's tuned to open, E9th. Might want to call it E9th-exended, OK, fine with me. Short, I don't relate to the double neck when I play this tuning and set-up.

The Universal needs some room for left leg movement, as the player wants to be able to reach any of the 8 pedals at any given time, without having to change his seating position.

The B-to-Bb-lower is a short and easy change that does not only form chords, but also is pretty helpful in melody lines.

It works with many pedal combinations and music styles. That's why I put it on LKR, way over to the right, leaving enough space for the left leg, but still within reach with my foot placed over pedals A & B (P2 & P3).

Unlike standard, pedal #6 does not raise the 4th string a half tone. This raise would be a standard raise on C6th and is on some Universals. The idea behind that, being that it puts the guitar up a fourth (from C6th to F79th or B6th to E79th). On the Universal this would translate into pulling it into an open, E79th with the E-to-Eb-lower-lever still engaged but overridden by pedal #6. With my approach however, this triggers the open (E9th) thinking (back to ground zero, as I call it), and open, in that particular case, does not include having the E-to-Eb-lower-lever engaged. So, if I had it engaged at the time I would depress pedal #6, I would automatically release it, and so, raise the 4th string back up a half tone.

This, has several advantages, which to make a long story short, could be called: The right to choose, which means that pedal #6 can very well be played with the 4th string lowered, at times.

Pedal #1 is on the outside (to the left of A & B). Many have removed this pull completely, but I still like to have it around somehow, and it does not get in the way there and it also works well together with the A-pedal (P2).
_________________
Best Regards,

John

1997 Carter U-12 Double Body-Natural Birdseye Maple-8p/5k, Peavey Nashville 1000 Amp, Goodrich L10K Vol. Pedal, Boss DD-3 Delay, Boss CE-5 Chorus, Behringer UMC-204HD Audio Interface, AKAI MPK Mini MK3 Professional Midi Keyboard/Controller, Gretsch Bobtail Resonator, Fender Banjo, Rondo SX Lap Steel (C6), DIY Lap Steel (Open D), and a few Mojo Hand Cigar Box Guitars (MojoHandGuitars.com).

Dave Van Allen · From: Doylestown, PA , US , Earth

To me it seems it's kind of like the PC vs Mac debate. It's not a religion, it's a tool.
Either device will accomplish the desired task, but in a slightly different way. (Although the Mac seems to do things more elegantly Laughing

)

I played D10 for several decades before changing over to U12 as my primary instrument. I still own and play a D10, and an S10 E9. I am comfortable gigging on any of them.

I like the U12 for the "one big-a$$ tuning"-right-at-my-fingertips availability of anything I can think of to play (which admittedly is less than a lot of folks!)

But I can still make some pretty agreeable music on the other axes as well, and enjoy the challenge of going from one to another with different knee setups etc.

But in response to your original post I agree with Fred G., Larry and Bob. It's subjective; and there's no reason you can't change your mind later as you gain more knowledge and experience, become more "your own player."
Bob did. I did. We just made the change that made us more comfortable making the music we feel.
That our decisions on the tool to use are completely opposite matters to no one else, really. The audience doesn't care what tuning we play. They generally barely care that we play at all.
_________________
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Scott Swartz · From: St. Louis, MO

here is one other small issue......

I found that there is less string noise when doing E9 stuff on a 10 string neck, its the big low strings where a lot of the noise comes from, and if the lower strings are not along for the ride there is less noise. Can be an issue for recording.
_________________
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David Doggett · Posted 21 Nov 2008 10:05 am

John S., nice uni copedent. You might want to try a whole tone raise on the B string on the A pedal, just like the raises in the octaves above. I have never understood why so many unis don't use that low B to its full potential. This gives the low root to the A pedal minor position. It provides the low power chord in that position, and gives a minor pentatonic tuning from the lowest to highest strings. That is extremely useful to me for rock, blues and jazz. But I confess that in E9 type country I don't use those low strings, they just aren't part of the traditional country E9 sound that people expect.

Scott S., yes the big low strings can cause excess string noise if they are not blocked, especially for E9 country style. But it is not difficult to learn to minimize that. I rest my picking-hand palm on the lowest strings when they are not in use, and also can block them with my bar-hand thumb. I also use a 10-string double-bullet bar. This takes the bar off the lowest strings when you are playing high, and the back-end bullet smooths the transition back onto the low strings, just like the traditional front-end bullet does on the high strings. D10 C6 has the same string noise problem, and I have never heard of anyone complaining about this for C6.

As for the tone issue of double-neck body versus single-neck body, if one can actually hear the difference and it is enough to bother them, they can play an SD uni, as many uni players do. However, this difference is so subtle as to be arguable. I have heard top steelers say the single bodies sound better. So go figure. For me, such subtle differences are not as important as having the notes I want to play. The vast majority of steelers (including myself) trade the clearly superior tone of a push-pull for the convenience of all-pull instruments; and that is a tone difference I can clearly hear, whereas, I cannot tell the double versus single-body tone difference from the usual differences between different instruments, even ones of the same make and model.

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Paul Redmond · From: Illinois, USA

I've posted stuff about this before, but I now favor a "short" 10-string tuning...same as the E9/B6, but without the two bass strings. I have found that by using the conventional E9 pedals and KL's, you can get a whole bunch of "6th stuff" on the E9 neck. You must play it as an A6 with the two splits down as your "root" position, or home base. It works well. Ron Elliott tipped me onto this many years ago. It was many years before I tried it, but when I did finally mess around with it, I discovered an entirely new approach to the "6th" side of the E9 tuning.
According to Fran Newman, Jeff was working on some instructional material that dealt with this subject just before his untimely death. I guess we'll never know any more than that.
I favor the E9/B6 over the D-10. Jeff always told me to think of it as a continuum rather than as two separate tunings. I heeded his words and never looked back. I love playing a double when I feel like playing a double. But if I can get 99.99% of what I want on 12 strings instead of 20 or more, why play a double? I can play in four distinct modes on my S-12...E9, B6, A6, and Sacred Steel. If I can't find what I want on that setup, it probably hasn't been thought of yet!!!
PRR

Ernie Pollock · From: Mt Savage, Md USA

I have gone to D-10's & back to S-12U's several times in my 33 years of steel playing, I really like the D-10's but can get most of the simple C6th things that I do with the S-12, plus I like having all the rhythm things you can do on the 12 string. I am sure there are many things the great players could find that they could not do on an S-12, but for most of us that are just weekend warriors & bedroom pickers, we could probably get by quite well on an S-12U. I am presently playing an old MSA Classic S-12U with a few extra 'triple raises' added for the B6th side of the tuning. One other note, when I do play an S-10, I like the low bass tuning with the low E note, gotta have that for my style, but with the Uni its all on there.

Ernie Pollock
Very Happy

Jay Jessup · From: Charlottesville, VA, USA

Chris,
Your's is a common question on the forum, as I have played both over the years I always check out the threads to see what is said. I find that the Universal players are usually a good bit more vocal in support of their choice as opposed to D-10 players although in this case there are some pretty good discussions supporting both approaches above.
I have no training as a phsycologist that would give me qualifications to pass judgement in such a fashion but reading your e-mail I say go for that GFI D-10. Of most all brands of steel GFI's are one of the easiest to change the tunings on so as you learn and want to try out different things it will pose the least resistance to that.
Good Luck

Ron Randall · From: Dallas, Texas, USA

Here is a great article from a great player.
http://www.b0b.com/infoedu/future1.htm.

It is objective.

FWIW I chose a UNI over a D10

I think of it as one big tuning. I don't think 6th tuning and then 9th tuning.

I only have to change and tune 12 strings! Smile

R2

Rex Myers · From: Risingsun Ohio, USA

Wow!
Lots of Knowledgeable pickers playing U12s
I started on a single S10 E9th tuning with Emmons setup to learn the basics
(don't get me wrong I am still learning)
I soon realized I wanted the sounds both tunings had to offer, So my friend whom I purchased my 10 string from convinced my to learn on a 12 string universal his reasoning was that if your just starting out than a U12 is the way to go.
I think He is right the advantage far out ways the disadvantage you will not be making a a huge sacrifice by learning the U12 verse the other.
My 2 cents
_________________
Rex Myers Fessenden U-12, 6 string Lap, Randall Steelman. Fender Princeton ReverbII, QuilterTT12

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I've tried 12 string tunings, but the tuning compromises and expanded chords just made me uncomfortable. As Rex said, there's a lot of knowledgeable players out there playing Uni's, but strangely, not many more than there were 25 years ago.

I really think it's a moot point as to what you play, anyhow. I feel that any guitar is more limited by the player playing it than it is by the number of strings there are. Yeah, I know, there's a lot of good 12-string Uni players, and even some with 14 strings...but none of them have ever impressed me the way that Chalker did.

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