| Author |
Topic: Using two amplifiers without a stereo volume pedal |
Rick Nicklas
From:
Verona, Mo. (deceased)
|
Posted 6 Nov 2008 4:30 am |
|
I have recently tried to get more punch and volume by using a splitter from my volume pedal and plugging into two amps. I noticed quite a drop in volume level on my Evans amp but not on the Peavey 112.
My question is, will a volume pedal with a stereo output (two separate outputs) remedy this. My Hilton pedal is an older model and only has an in and one out. |
|
|
 |
Bo Borland
From:
South Jersey -
|
Posted 6 Nov 2008 4:35 am
|
|
| why not use the N112 as the master and slave the Evans? |
|
|
|
Rick Nicklas
From:
Verona, Mo. (deceased)
|
Posted 6 Nov 2008 4:58 am
|
|
| Bo, I like the Evans for the high end and mids and just use the Peavey for the low end gutsy sound (not a lot of base but a good clean low end to compliment the highs). |
|
|
|
ray qualls
From:
Baxter Springs, Kansas (deceased)
|
Posted 6 Nov 2008 9:58 am
|
|
Rick, get you a Boss Stereo Delay or some other stereo effect stomp box. Its one in and two out. You're cutting your signal in half the way you're doing it now! Ray
_________________
Ray Qualls
Member(KSGA)
Inducted into KSGA
Steel Guitar Hall of Fame 2008 |
|
|
|
John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
|
Posted 6 Nov 2008 11:08 am
|
|
| I seem to remember someone who did this, not sure though. If one of the amps has two input jacks, plug your guitar into one of the jacks, and plug a cord into the other input jack and then plug that cord into the other amp's input. Does that sound right? Don't try it until someone else says it's okay. |
|
|
|
George McLellan
From:
Duluth, MN USA
|
Posted 6 Nov 2008 11:44 am
|
|
I go out of my NV112 OR NV400 to the #2 input of my 63' Fender Pro. That is recommended by Fender and Peavey.
Geo
 |
|
|
|
Rick Nicklas
From:
Verona, Mo. (deceased)
|
Posted 6 Nov 2008 12:40 pm
|
|
Thanks for the replies so far guys. Ray, I already tried that with my Lexicon and the volume dropped on my Evans.
Here's what I do now: Direct from my volume pedal to the Evan's. I am running the effects loop from the back of my Evans through a Lexicon MX200. Now I want to have the benefit of using my Nashville 112 without disturbing the volume or tone controls of my current setup. George can you be more explicit on where you come out of your 112 to connect to the fender. I know enough about electronics just to get myself shocked from experimenting. Do I come out of the spot marked "OUTPUT" on the back of my Evans then to the #2 input on the front of the 112?
Also, can you guys inform me on how I can tell if my speaker is 4 or 8 Ohms.
Thanks so much.... You guys are the greatest. |
|
|
|
George McLellan
From:
Duluth, MN USA
|
Posted 6 Nov 2008 12:57 pm
|
|
Rick, I don't know anything about Evens amps so I can't help you there. I come out of the "Pre amp out/CD Input" on the back of the NV112, then to the #2 input on my Fender amp. I have used this set up where I have the 112 on my side of the stage and the Fender Pro on the other side so the players can set the tone and volume to their preferance, but I prefer to use them stacked on my side. I have just received my new Webb and am now using that instead of the NV112, but haven't gotten into it yet as to using the second amp with it.
Geo |
|
|
|
Stephen Gambrell
From:
Over there
|
Posted 7 Nov 2008 3:29 am
|
|
| John Billings wrote: |
| I seem to remember someone who did this, not sure though. If one of the amps has two input jacks, plug your guitar into one of the jacks, and plug a cord into the other input jack and then plug that cord into the other amp's input. Does that sound right? Don't try it until someone else says it's okay. |
Jimi Hendrix, for one! |
|
|
|
Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
|
Posted 7 Nov 2008 5:14 am
|
|
What Steve said!
It's a system that's worked fine for decades. When I don't go that route, I use a stereo chorus (or other stereo pedal) just for the splitter circuit.
I don't comprehend any reason either amp company would recommend lugging into the #2 input of a Pro; it doesn't make any difference at all which one you plug into when using a line or preamp output; #1 has more gain and will give you more punch than #2 - #2 will give you a little more headroom at the sacrifice of gain. It's really personal tone preference - not a technical requirement.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
|
|
|
Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
|
Posted 7 Nov 2008 10:56 am
|
|
Jim, could that be used to route your amp into a PA set also, say just run a shielded cable out of your second input jack and then to the 1/4" input jack on a PA set? I have an old amp that I really like but it doesn't have a line out..........JH in Va.
_________________
Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!! |
|
|
|
George McLellan
From:
Duluth, MN USA
|
Posted 7 Nov 2008 1:37 pm
|
|
Mr. Sliff, the connections I posted are what I was told by Mike Brown of Peavey and Sam Marshall of Fender.
Geo
Last edited by George McLellan on 7 Nov 2008 5:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Rick Nicklas
From:
Verona, Mo. (deceased)
|
Posted 7 Nov 2008 1:41 pm
|
|
Wow..... Double Wow...... Somebody explain this to me please. I have really been wondering why my Evans RE200 volume was not really strong at all. Now I have followed the instructions above and it almost jumped off the stand. I cannot believe the punch and power it has now. Here's what I did.
Plugged my volume pedal into the Peavey 112 and ran my effects (Lexicon MX200) through the effects loop on the back of the 112. Then, I simply ran a chord from my input #2 on the 112 to input on the Evans and it almost took out my dresser drawers. I actually had to turn it way down. This tells me that something is not correct with this amp in some way on it's own. Is it possible that I have an 8 Ohm speaker that cuts the volume power some way? Why would it have so much power by just plugging in the second input from my 112. It was amazing. Sounds like an Evans on steroids now. I hope there is some way I can figure out how to get this much power without the help of the 112. The effects do not come thru the Evans (just the Peavey 112). |
|
|
|
Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
|
Posted 8 Nov 2008 2:43 pm
|
|
George - I thought I explained pretty well why it wouldn't make a difference EXCEPT as far as personal preference goes. They may have very well automatically thought "pedal steel - he wants headroom at the sacrifice of gain"; but some players would WANT the gain, especially if running at a slightly lower volume level. I was simply pointing out that "directions" to use input #2 are more of a "suggestion"...but you might want to try the #1 input - you might like it better.
It's not a "one size fits all" method.
Jerry - sure; it's essentially the same thing as the two-amp method. It's not as efficient as a channel splitter but it'll work fine for a low-budget "direct inject" system. However, with a PA you're not going to have a guitar-amp type preamp so it might sound pretty cold. I'd probably run it through my Bass Para Acoustic DI instead if I wanted a "cheater" line out so I'd have some control over the tone.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
|
|
|
James Collett
From:
San Dimas, CA
|
Posted 14 Nov 2008 9:07 pm
|
|
Jerry- I think Peavy makes a DI that uses speaker outs- that might work AND you get the benefit of going through the power tubes (if it is a tube amp). But then agan chances are I don't have a clue what I'm talking about- that seems to happen a lot!  
_________________
James Collett |
|
|
|
Ken Fox
From:
Nashville GA USA
|
Posted 15 Nov 2008 6:28 am
|
|
Any time you use two amps or two devices that both have grounded AC cords you will get some to a whole lot of ground loop hum.
What is it? When two amps are plugged together via a volume pedal or jack to jack the amps are then grounded to each other. That completes a "ground loop", a circle of wire that acts like a loop antenna that picks up lots of 60 cycle hum.
The loop can be "unsafely" broken by using a two wire to 3 wire AC adapter plug on the end on one of the amp's AC cords.
The best way I have found to eliminate that hum is to use a "HUM-X" on the AC cord of one amp. Problem will be total solved and the amp will be safely grounded. |
|
|
|
Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
|
Posted 15 Nov 2008 8:20 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| The loop can be "unsafely" broken by using a two wire to 3 wire AC adapter plug on the end on one of the amp's AC cords. |
Note what my buddy Ken said - "UNSAFELY"!!!
He and I do not condone the use of "ground lifts" to "solve" these problems. I have not tried the Hum-X myself - I guess you guys are embarrassing me into buying one. I almost always get into the root of the problem and find out which amp is grounded poorly, has polarity reversed, or whatever and solve the problem rather than fix the symptom, but if the Hum-X really works as well (and safely) as reported, I need to check one out. I DO use similar things like isolation transformers, but that Hum-X looks a LOT smaller and more convenient.
Caveat - from what I understand it only handles hum from grounding issues - not dimmers, fluorescent lights, etc - correct?
I'll add that I've only rarely had the problem occur when using a stereo chorus or delay as a splitter, and only once did I have a hum problem when jumping from the #2 input of one amp to #1 of a Fender SF or BF amp (and one of those amps had been modified and polarity reversed, a quick fix). I HAVE had it when mixing amp brands - almost every time when trying Fender/Marshall combinations.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
|
|
|
Ken Fox
From:
Nashville GA USA
|
Posted 15 Nov 2008 9:11 am
|
|
| Jim, you can't cure ground loop hum with ground reversal switches, etc. The grounding problem can be solved by one path to ground or a HUM-X eliminator. Works like magic!! |
|
|
|
Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
|
Posted 16 Nov 2008 12:20 am
|
|
Yeah Ken - my comment was worded poorly - the polarity problem was only part of the "quick fix" which included ground relocation. My bad. But I will try the Hum-X as well.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
|
|
|
John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
|
Posted 17 Nov 2008 8:44 am
|
|
Here's what Bobbe says to do in his latest "Tip."
"One more important thing here. You must have a ground lift on the end of the amplifier AC power cords so that neither amp is actually grounded. This can be done by cutting off the third prong on the AC plug or by putting on a two prong adapter with the little green wire that sticks out on the side."
I would not feel safe doin' that! Back in the days when I played in stereo, I just used a rack-mount stereo amp. But, even playing mono through two amps, I'm uncomfortable with "lifting the grounds." |
|
|
|
Lynn Oliver
From:
Redmond, Washington USA * R.I.P.
|
Posted 17 Nov 2008 9:52 am
|
|
I'm seriously sleep deprived, so I apologize in advance if my writing is not entirely coherent.
I just read Bobbe's "tip" and I too am concerned that he would give out such irresponsible advice. While Ken's offers one safer solution, if the cable shielding is connected properly there should not be a problem.
[Edit] The shielding comment generally applies to balanced cables rather than unbalanced cables like guitar cables, since the shield is part of the signal path. Although it still works most of the time, the isolation transformer (Hum X), as Ken suggests, is the preferred solution. Yes, I need sleep.[end Edit]
As to the rest of Bobbe's tips for connecting two amplifiers there are some additional problems: for example, he recommends setting the controls on both amps the same, but with his recommended hookup the resistance at the second input is higher and the volume will be lower. So why use the same settings? Then there is the issue of comb-filtering... It's all just plain wrong.
Last edited by Lynn Oliver on 17 Nov 2008 11:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
|
Posted 17 Nov 2008 11:27 am
|
|
I saw these last few posts after starting a thread myself about Bobbe's latest newsletter. I don't want to give him a hard time, but if there's a chance to save somebody from a shocking experience...
I sent him a note about it, hopefully he'll make a correction in the next issue. |
|
|
|
Jim Bates
From:
Alvin, Texas, USA
|
Posted 17 Nov 2008 5:27 pm
|
|
O.K., I'll ask: What is a HUM-X filter and what is its circuitry? Where do you get one?
Thanx,
Jim |
|
|
|
Rick Nicklas
From:
Verona, Mo. (deceased)
|
|
|
|
Lynn Oliver
From:
Redmond, Washington USA * R.I.P.
|
Posted 17 Nov 2008 7:02 pm
|
|
| Ken Fox wrote: |
| ...That completes a "ground loop", a circle of wire that acts like a loop antenna that picks up lots of 60 cycle hum... |
I just wanted to clarify this slightly. In a ground loop the 60 Hz hum is the result of current flowing because the grounds are at different voltage potentials. |
|
|
|
