a couple cabinet drop questions

John Poston · From: Albuquerque, NM, USA

1. I've moved my ABC pedals over to the right 1 to put a 4th pedal in the leftmost position. It seems that cabinet drop when using A pedal is much worse now. Is this normal? (GFI Ultra, BTW)

2. Does the age of strings affect cabinet drop? (i.e. the problem is worse with new or very old strings)

Chuck Snider R.I.P. · From: West Virginia, USA - Morgantown, WV

John, I cannot answer the question you ask, but I was wondering which particular GFI Ultra you have? In other words, single neck, SD, or double, 10 or 12 string? I have a GFI U-12 single (no pad).

-Chuck
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Billy Knowles · From: Kenansville, N. C. 28349 usa

John
You are nearer the center of the guitar I would think is the reason
Thanks
billy

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

As a long time 12 string player I can tell you that 12's DEFINITELY detune/cab drop/whatever you want to call that deflection when you engage changes that DON'T move the string that you're observing -- more than a 10.

My limited mechanical understanding tells me that a longer changer axle COULD deform (bend) slightly -- especially when being pulled from the middle -- like the 6th string. No maker I'm aware of increases the diameter of the changer axle when adding two additional changer fingers to the length. How much axle flex contributes, I have very little idea -- I haven't actually tried to measure it. It is also widely held that the cabinet itself flexes and I don't doubt that, but the fact is that there are multiple reasons.

Moving the A pedal toward the center of the pedalbar does a similar thing as pulling on the middle of the changer axle -- it bends slightly. It doesn't have to bend far to be measurable -- a bit further and it will be NOTICEABLE.

I've had single 12s that drop 20cents on a plain sixth string. Only solution was a wound sixth but I couldn't get used to the LOOOOOONG TRAVEL -- esp when raising or lowering a full tone.

Age of strings will affect TUNING, but the drop should be the same with dead strings vs new strings.
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Jim Pitman · From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA

I tried to nail down the source of detune with some precision electrical measurement equipment at one point and relaized it was the combo of a quite a few things.
However, this one point has been overlooked and I think it is the most signinficant.
I was witness to the completion of a single 14 - talk about cabinet drop - wowsa! This prompted me to consider the following.
A 12 string has 20% more string tension on the top of the guitar than a 10 string. A 14 has 16% more than a 12. Since the tension is all on the top side of the guitar, the top is already bowing even without pressing any pedals, a 12 more so than a 10, a 14 more so than a 12, etc. The theory: Once you bow a peice of material it is easier to bow it further. It is not a linear releationship. A guitar top that is already bowed or bent is much easier to bow or bend further than one that isn't bowed as much. By the way, detune happens even if you use your finger to actuate the raise finger (rather than the foot to actuate the pedal which pulls down on the cabinet).
Next time you restring your guitar just put on the 5th and 6th strings only and check the drop of the sixth string while pressing pedal A to raise the 5th. I guarantee it will be much less than the same guitar fully strung.
Perhaps a truss rod on the underside of the guitar to counter the string tension is the answer. One could use a turnbuckle to tune it. Unfortunately you may have to tune out the bow frequently given temperature/humidity changes. I'm not sure this is practical. Another idea would be to eqaulize the tension of a raise by encorporating a changer of unique design that adds the same amount of tension to the bottom side as as added to the top by added string tension due to the raise itself. No current changer design does this as far as I know.

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

Next time you restring, put the tuner on some string, and one at a time slack the other strings while measuring the cents change on the monitored strings...as the lLaughin chap said...."verrry interesting".

If you slack each string one at a time, then retune them while watching the monitor string, you can draw some conclusions about which strings, and/or their location re changer axle cause the most variation.

Larry Bressington · From: Nebraska

If i'd dare ask ode chap, just how much drop is it? a good guitar should not flex enough for it to bend the ear!
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ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

Different PSGs = different results...easy to check your own instrument.

on one of mine, 13 strings of 14 slacked gave 50 cents increase on the monitor string = string 6.

Bill Ford · From: Graniteville SC Aiken

Seems I remember reading that the reason for the Emmons setup was to have the most used pedals closest to the end for less detuning. Also talked to a well qualified builder/repairman who stated the best way to stop detuning was to put a brace in the center from the body to the pedal rack. I don't buy the changer axle flex theory because both my guitars have supports between each changer finger.They both have drop.

$.02
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Larry Bressington · From: Nebraska

I wonder how lloyd green got away with it?
I dont think he had axles or stabilizer,s, maybe he did????
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Bill Dobkins · From: Rolla Missouri, USA

If your pedal pull is hard you may want to change the setting on the bell cranks,and or the pull rod settings at the changer. This can cause more cabinet stress causing cabinet drop.
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Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

To see the effect of the A+B pedals pulling down on the body, loosen the tuning nuts so they don't raise the B and G# strings at all. Then mash those pedals and watch your tuner needle drop.
Even easier, lean on the guitar while you watch the tuner.

John Poston · From: Albuquerque, NM, USA

Thanks all,
It's a S10, no pad. I might try to move the pullrods to the lightest hole at the changer. I think it's the worst with A+F because I have more of my weight on the A pedal. I don't remember the cabinet drop, but it's enough to be unpleasant to the ear. I tried to make sure nothing was rubbing/catching underneath. I might end up putting everything back to the normal emmons setup since that pedal 0 isn't super important to me.

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

how did emmons' black album ever get recorded with all this cabinet drop problem?

John Poston · From: Albuquerque, NM, USA

haha yeah and Lloyd Green doesn't have a D lever so everybody throw away what you have and just learn to play, right? And Ralph Mooney doesn't bend his picks, he wears them straight like a banjo player so put your pliers away and just learn to like the way they come from the factory.

Anyway, my problem is significant enough to be noticably out of tune and I cannot compensate w/ bar slants when playing close 3 note voicings. Just asking for some opinions because the GFI is a very good guitar and didn't have this problem w/ a standard setup. So I need to know if I'm doing something wrong.

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Okay, suppose Jim Pitman is right about the bowing of the top plate. And suppose Bill Ford's tech is correct about a brace between the body and the pedal rack. Then, it would seem to me that the braces that some builders put across the body, from the front apron to the back apron, would not have much effect. Perhaps an adjustable tension rod from one endplate to the other, could be set to counteract the bowing of the top. It probably wouldn't be perfect, as tensions on the top plate change with the use of the pedals and levers, but it might be more effective.????????

Whip Lashaway · From: Monterey, Tenn, USA

I can't explain it however, both of my Sierra's have almost imperseptable cabinet drop even with a meter. I use an even tension tuning string system. IE... all open strings come into tune with 19.5 lbs tension on them. The man who invented this system told me that they tend to reenforce each other and want to stay in tune. Hey I don't understand it I'm just repeating it! All I know is I tune my strings when I change them. About 90% of the rest of the time I'm just checking it and it's still in tune! and I RARELY break a string. Thay go dead on harmonics and then I change them. I haven't put this system on my Emmons yet. I only use it in the studio which isn't that often. I might just change it over though and check out the cabinet drop and see what happens and let you all know.
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David Doggett · Posted 4 Nov 2008 5:58 pm

Whip, that's interesting. So what are the gauges for equal tension on the open strings for E9? Seems like I have read in the past that the string gauge charts used to make up pedal steel string packs choose the gauge according to the highest raise on each string. So equal tension on the open strings is a different approach.

Danny Bates · From: Fresno, CA. USA

Chris Ivey said:

Larry Bressington · From: Nebraska

Ok gentlemen, the guitar must have a problem somewhere.
I just put a plank of wood over 4 pedals on my sho-bud and pressed all pedals together on the C6 neck, and i tried all 3 on the E9.
The tuner showed, 440 hertz without pressing, and 339 with the pedals pressed on the 4th string, isent that 1 hertz, How many cents is that??, somebody mentioned 50 cents on a guitar? I am not sure how to convert that!
The ear did not detect it, because i ran an A note backing track against it.

John, are you sure something else is not causing the problem, loose key head, loose changer etc, just a thought,set the rods up for the easiest pull,[ furthest away from body, on bell and changer] but i am not convinced that the drop is caused by your pedal set up, C6 has pedals in the middle. I have tried everything in the book as far as exsperiments in the years, and i havent had a lot of body drop issues in my tests. I always bite on these issue's Laughing

as you know!
John, are you tuning your pedal notes with the pedals down on both A/B.
when tuning C pedal, I tune 4+5 string identical at about 338 hertz on pedal C Both pedals pressed B/C [E9]
I tune my pedals with them both down, I think i read somewhere years ago that Weldon Myrick pushed that idea, i have followed that ever since.
Is this a maple body guitar??? GFI is a good brand, let us know how it goes please! Smile

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Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Danny: I like it.

As far as old strings; seems like I heard they tend to go flat as they lost their elasticity.
Maybe old strings would inhibit the cabinet drop effect? Already flat... can't go too much flatter...
nah. Embarassed

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John Poston · From: Albuquerque, NM, USA

Thanks for all the advice, all. When I have some time this weekend, I'm going to back off the hex tuners at the endplate so they don't do anything and see how bad the drop is. If it looks pretty good, I'll setup the A pedal w/ the easiest/lightest pull and see how bad it is then.
I'll let you know how it goes.

Steve Waltz · From: USA

JB said: "Then, it would seem to me that the braces that some builders put across the body, from the front apron to the back apron, would not have much effect."

You can build a header out of two 2x12's with a 1/2 piece of plywood in between and it is stronger than a solid pine 4x12 because of the layers and how they are conected. Other layered products are also stronger than solid woods.

Most new guitars seem to have metal braces on the front apron where everything is attached. This has to increase the strength of the front apron which will increase the ability of that apron to resist the downward pressure caused by pedal pulls. So two pieces of material will be stronger than the old solid maple front apron. Most if not all old guitars have only solid maple front aprons and it seems many of them have cabinet drop issues.

Why did people not notice the cabinet drop in the past, if that is actually the case...I speculate...without the large numbers of knee levers that were not on those old guitars, there wouldn't have been as many opportunities to play full chords in as many places as you can with knee levers. Those full chords would show off the cabinet drop issue notes because the note would be ringing against more notes at the same time than in the past when you would have been more limited. I would think that in the past the fuller E9 chords would have been limited to no pedals positions and A+B positions where cabinet drop issues would have been minimized by altered tuning methods.

With combinations such as A+F and B+E lower lever you have the pressure of the pedal going on with the addition of the new full chord voicings and mutiple strings ringing against each other. Add those levers onto an older guitar that didn't have them in the past and the problem might be more obvious to the ear.

C6th might ruin my speculation but I feel like C6th doesn't show off cabinet drop issues as much for some reason.

I believe there is a point to playing an older guitar and it would be nice to actually discuss cabinet drop issues without the standard "get over it" attitude. If you don't have an older guitar then you might think that there isn't an issue and I suspect that there isn't since, again, most new guitars are constructed differently.

The guitar in question isn't old so this might be out of context but I jsut thought I'd throw my theory out there.

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Danny Bates · From: Fresno, CA. USA

Earnest Bovine said:

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