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Topic: 2 & 9 lowers |
Brian Pelky
From:
Portland, OR
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Posted 10 Oct 2008 4:50 pm |
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Hi all.....what is the most common use of the RKR lowering of 2 from D# to D/C#, and lowering of 9 from D to C#? I've heard that is a must knee move to have, but what is it's common use? Thanks in advance.
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Sho-Bud Super Pro D10,Tele,Strat,Martin D-28,Korg Triton Pro,Nashville 400 |
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BOBBY JACKS
From:
Fort Madison, Iowa
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Posted 10 Oct 2008 6:06 pm
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| Buddy Used It On Crazy Arms |
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BOBBY JACKS
From:
Fort Madison, Iowa
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Posted 10 Oct 2008 6:06 pm
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| Buddy Used It On Crazy Arms |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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John Bechtel
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.
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Posted 10 Oct 2008 7:51 pm
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It could prove to be a slight handicap on some material, but; you might want to experiment by eliminating the 10th. str. Raise on your (A)-pedal and instead, Lower the 10th. str. from (B) to (A) on the same KL that Lowers #2 & #9. Then your (A) & (B) Pedals ‘plus’ the KL will give you an A6 w/o the (D). (Lo to Hi)
A––C#––E––F#––A––C#––E––A––C#––F#
KL~KL~~~~~~~~[B]~[A]~~~[B]~KL~~~~ Also, the [A]-Pedal alone produces a nice sounding E13.
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<marquee> Go~Daddy~Go, (No), Go, It's your Break Time</marquee> L8R, jb
My T-10 Remington Steelmaster |
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Brian Pelky
From:
Portland, OR
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Posted 11 Oct 2008 8:01 am
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Thanks so much Greg.....this helps!
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Sho-Bud Super Pro D10,Tele,Strat,Martin D-28,Korg Triton Pro,Nashville 400 |
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John Bechtel
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.
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Posted 12 Oct 2008 12:24 am
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Lowering #2 & #9 is used a lot individually! Lowering #2 along with the (A)-Pedal Raise and then releasing strings #2 & #5 together, I think was used in recordings such as “Another Bridge To Burn” and “A Way To Survive”, if my memory is working properly! At least that's when I use it in the Intros.!
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<marquee> Go~Daddy~Go, (No), Go, It's your Break Time</marquee> L8R, jb
My T-10 Remington Steelmaster |
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Jim Walker
From:
Headland, AL
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Posted 12 Oct 2008 3:58 pm
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I use the 9 lower quite a bit as the last note on some of my outros.
JW
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Show Pro D10, Session 400 |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 12 Oct 2008 7:29 pm
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The 2nd string must be lowered to D to be in the right key at the II and V frets. For example in the key of G if you're at the 5th or 10th fret, you need to lower the 2nd string for it to be usable.
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Ben Jones
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2008 7:32 am
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The use of this change STILL eludes me. I mean , i DO know a couple things to do with it...but never end up playing any of em when playing "live". I just cant seem to incorporate this change into my real world playing. oh well, maybe someday i will have that epiphany...i am trying hard to make some sense of it and others have been very helpful in trying to show me. Just not there yet i guess, but this is what i am working on/have been working on right now (amongst other things)
If we can hardly use the second string without it being lowered, I sometimes wonder why we just dont tune it down a half step to begin with...but then i remember some of the things I do with the unlowered 2nd string. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2008 8:48 am
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Okay, Ben. Go to the 3rd fret. Play these strings in order:
3 1 4 2 5A 2 4 1 3
That's over a G chord (the I chord). Now go to the 8th fret and do the same thing. That's over a C chord (the IV chord).
Now your brain is fully rooted in the key of G. The next chord is the D7 at the 10th fret. To stay in key of G, you will have to lower you 2nd string. If you don't, it will sound wrong. Here's the lick for the 10th fret, over the D7 (aka V7) chord:
3 1 4 2D 5A 2D 4 1 3
Does this help make sense of it?
_________________
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Ben Jones
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2008 9:03 am
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thanks bOb, I will have to try tonight when i get home from work.
It is starting to seem like the 2nd lower is used most often in conjunction with the A pedal, or AB pedals?
Is there a commonly used vertical harmonized scale using the 2nd lower? I can sort of see the horizontal scales using it (getting there at least).
Finding the vertical scale on 5 and 8 beginning with the E lower really helped me understand that change and allowed me to use it more frequently so I am hoping the same might happen with the string 2 lower. |
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Matthew Prouty
From:
Warsaw, Poland
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Posted 13 Oct 2008 9:04 am
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| I use this lever with the A&B down all the time when I want to play 6th sounds. I have been thinking about putting it on a pedal with the A&B. It gives you a fairly full A6th stacked. On the pedal I want to lower the 10th to A to complete it. |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2008 9:09 am
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| Another possibility, that I use is, I tune my 9th string to C# and with RKR pull it up to D at the same time as I lower my 2nd D# to D. Then, for me, RKR is thought of as the E7 lever. The C# on 9, opens up a lot of lower string runs. |
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Matthew Prouty
From:
Warsaw, Poland
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Posted 13 Oct 2008 9:21 am
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chas,
Thats a real interesting idea. You could still play all the licks just reversing the action of the lever. Do you use the same string gauge on the 9th as a normal E9th would use?
Do you have any recorded examples of your bass runs?
Mateo |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2008 9:51 am
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| Ben Jones wrote: |
It is starting to seem like the 2nd lower is used most often in conjunction with the A pedal, or AB pedals?
Is there a commonly used vertical harmonized scale using the 2nd lower? I can sort of see the horizontal scales using it (getting there at least). |
Strings 1&2 in the key of G, harmonized 3rds:
| Tab: |
fret lever notes
5 D G B
6 - A C
8 - B D
10 D C E
12 D D F#
13 - E G
15 - F# A
17 D G B |
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Ben Jones
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 14 Oct 2008 7:23 am
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| b0b wrote: |
Okay, Ben. Go to the 3rd fret. Play these strings in order:
3 1 4 2 5A 2 4 1 3
That's over a G chord (the I chord). Now go to the 8th fret and do the same thing. That's over a C chord (the IV chord).
Now your brain is fully rooted in the key of G. The next chord is the D7 at the 10th fret. To stay in key of G, you will have to lower you 2nd string. If you don't, it will sound wrong. Here's the lick for the 10th fret, over the D7 (aka V7) chord:
3 1 4 2D 5A 2D 4 1 3
Does this help make sense of it? |
I got to try this out this morning and yes, it does make some sense. What I am seeing is that in pedals down position you need the 2 lower to keep the scale and this goes along with the few "licks" I do know using the 2 lower. i hesitate to call em licks, more like scales and chord patterns. The vertical scale on 1 and 2 worked and made perfect sense, but I cant see myself running that scale on these strings for some reason. maybe its because they are two adjacent strings or maybe because they are on the chromatic strings but it just feels a bit odd. Good to know its there tho.
So..i think I have a somewhat better understanding or have firmed up my ideas about how the 2 lower works. Now for the hard part. Incorporating it into my playing. I guess i should hunt down some licks and maybe some songs where its used and see if that gives me any ideas. The last lesson i had I specifically asked for some uses of this change and got some good ones...just havent been able to squeeze em in while playing with the band yet. Guess it will take some time.
anyway, thanks for the great info and help with this change. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 14 Oct 2008 7:58 am
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| Ben Jones wrote: |
| The vertical scale on 1 and 2 worked and made perfect sense, but I cant see myself running that scale on these strings for some reason. maybe its because they are two adjacent strings or maybe because they are on the chromatic strings but it just feels a bit odd. Good to know its there tho. |
The trick is to move back and forth between those two strings and 3&4, or 4&5. Each of the positions on 1&2 is at a key fret position of the "main" strings 3,4,5,6. While you're on those main strings, reach over and pick 1&2, slide up or down by a position or two, then go back to the main strings.
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Ben Jones
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 14 Oct 2008 8:10 am
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I will give that a go tonight bOb. Thanks again!
I was playing with a new band last night and had charted out some chord progressions of their songs using my 6 string.
In one spot i had written down D#7. It was embarassing to realize that once I was there and sitting behind the steel , i had forgotten how to get a 7th chord. when i got home I remembered ...the 2 lower! |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 14 Oct 2008 10:22 am
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Matthew, everything is the same and I tune the C# to either -15cents or -18cents depending on what moon cycle we're in. That way, when I resolve a V-I (open strings) E7 to A (peds AB), the 9th string, D, (dom7) resolves nicely to C# (maj3).
You recall the voice leading of dominants, from your counterpoint classes, where the 7 of V resolves down to the 3rd of I and the 3rd of V resolves up to the root of I.
Bass runs? Just tune your 9th to C# and noodle around the 6-10 strings on frets 3,4 and 5. |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 14 Oct 2008 10:40 am
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| Another approach (mine and Jimmie Crawford's--any other resemblance between him and me doesn't exist!) is the opposite of chas's: Tune both 2 and 9 to D and raise 2 to D# and lower 9 to C# on a lever (I use RKR). I find all four notes to be in frequent use, and pretty much equally. So it's only a matter of choosing which pairing to have "open" and which on a lever to hold. You can do all the same things either way. |
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Brian McGaughey
From:
Orcas Island, WA USA
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Posted 14 Oct 2008 12:03 pm
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This is a timely discussion for me as I'm about to add the 2 and 9 string lower(s) to my guitar this weekend.
Hey Ben, don't forget about the Dom7 to be had with the B pedal and the E lower lever. I, IV, V7 in G: Root at 3rd fret, IV at 3rd fret with AB, V7 at 3rd fret also with B pedal and E lower 1/2 tone.
Just remember: slide back 2 frets from the AB position and release A and add E lower...it's the dom 7th of the chord you just slid down from. Every string is in the chord except 9th string.
The reason I bring it up is this is the main way (other than sometimes grabbing the 9th string when noodling low) for me to get a dom 7th. I don't have the 2nd string lower. |
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Ben Jones
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 14 Oct 2008 1:47 pm
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| Brian McGaughey wrote: |
This is a timely discussion for me as I'm about to add the 2 and 9 string lower(s) to my guitar this weekend.
Hey Ben, don't forget about the Dom7 to be had with the B pedal and the E lower lever. I, IV, V7 in G: Root at 3rd fret, IV at 3rd fret with AB, V7 at 3rd fret also with B pedal and E lower 1/2 tone.
Just remember: slide back 2 frets from the AB position and release A and add E lower...it's the dom 7th of the chord you just slid down from. Every string is in the chord except 9th string.
The reason I bring it up is this is the main way (other than sometimes grabbing the 9th string when noodling low) for me to get a dom 7th. I don't have the 2nd string lower. |
woah...I was wondering what that was and why it sounded so similar to the chord to frets above it with AB down. I think youve just ruined one of the uses of the 2 lower for me tho, as I much prefer the e lower lever and to not have to reach for that 2 string.
My theory is embarassingly bad. So bad that I am realizing it is a serious detriment to my learning and needs to be addressed. Twenty plus years on guitar and I never even learned the names of the chords i was playing.  I know a D7 on guitar as "that D chord with the first string dropped a fret"...good grief. So let me get this straight. two frets back from pedals down with B engaged and E lowered (I call this lever the D lever)is the seventh of that chord? So D7 exists at fret 3 with BD? I am familiar with this cnhange fom several differnt songs i know but I never knew it was a 7th chord I was playing. i like the sound of this change very much.
what does Dom mean? dominant? what does dominant mean? haha... oh man, this is like teaching someone who doesnt know the alphabet how to write a short story. painful. you guys are nice to put up with this. I'm off to google "dominant chord" |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 14 Oct 2008 1:50 pm
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In any A+F position, if you release the A pedal it makes a rootless 7th chord. To get the low root, add the D lever on the 9th string.
| Tab: |
G G7 G7
F#_______________________________
D#_______________________________
G#_______________________________
E _______________________________
B ___6A______6_______6___________
G#___6_______6_______6___________
F#_______________________________
E ___6F______6F______6F__________
D ___________________6D__________
B _______________________________
low root
added |
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Ben Jones
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 14 Oct 2008 2:03 pm
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well my brain is about to explode now.
i dont know why i freeze up so bad when the theory comes into play. Its like 8th grade algebra for me all over again. a couple lines from wikipedia and my eyes started to glaze over. But I now understand the dominant tone is the fifth tone of the scale.
Man I wish the names of the knee levers were standardized. bOb and my description of the "D" lever is completely different.
I am definetly gonna run thru this all tonight when i get home. you guys are very patient and generous with your knowledge. thanks a ton. |
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