Describe Pull/Release compared to Push/Pull

Ron ! · Posted 4 Oct 2008 8:46 pm

How would you describe the Pull/Release sound compared to the Push/Pull sound?
Which one gives the better tone you think....and why.

I have a Marlen Pull/Release here that I gave a major overhaul and I think it has a brighter tone then the Push/Pull.It seems to me that this guitar even has more body in it's tone.Maybe this is because it has aluminum necks and a lacquer body.

What is your opinion?

Ron

richard burton · From: Britain

My Denley pull-release is very similar in tone to my Emmons PP.
Compare the two videos

DENLEY
EMMONS

Brendan Mitchell · From: Melbourne Australia

Very nice Richard , at first I though yeah the Emmons sounds better But on second playing , gee there's not much in it is there ? I would like to try and pick them apart blindfolded .

Larry Bressington · From: Nebraska

I have had Emmons and Sho-bud and MSA , and ill be hohnest, i dident find the differences that big, they all sounded great, many a good singer have told me; They all sound great, i cant tell the difference!
Difference in tone is NOT always dependent on push or pull, its wood and everything else, all those ingredients mashed together; Whats better a blonde or a brunette? Razz

A push/pull system stuck on a Deckly wont sound like an Emmons! A bad player sat at a Franklin guitar wont sound any good or do the steel any justice, that said, If paul franklin sat at a bad steel, he'd sound awsome!
Master your chosen tone and pick on my brothers. Smile

Cartwright Thompson · Posted 5 Oct 2008 2:15 pm

Well said Larry!!!

Larry Bressington · From: Nebraska

Thankyou Cart, its a great forum, i also enjoy a bit of humour, nothing is sent as sarcastic, so please dont ever take it that way. Pick hard my brothers! Smile

Ron ! · Posted 5 Oct 2008 4:58 pm

Terry Kinnear · From: Erie ,Pennsylvania

you can"t be talking about that boat anchor, someone dropped off and ran. I still think you ,have alot of work to do to it. Tk
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Clyde Mattocks · From: Kinston, North Carolina, USA

I am only addressing the question "Why is a p/p a
wanted guitar and a pull release not?" If a string is to be raised AND lowered, it has to be somehow held in place by springs. In a pull release system, the underneath of a steel gets crowded pretty quick. and you have to stand on your head to see the adjustments. Mainly though, the ability to change setups is more difficult in the pull release guitar.
It is an outdated system, but some of them sound awfully good.
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Larry Bressington · From: Nebraska

I think the good sound is part of the characteristics of that model, i dont personally beleive that its just the mechanism! Sad

I also hear a lot of differences between steel brands, but i dont think that there is a bad one out there, everybody hears it differently, we know that for sure! I sound better on my sho-bud than on my emmons, because i play the buddy all the time, dabling with another brand never really does it fair justice. Like i said before, you have to exstract good tone out of it! I dont think any guitar sounds any better than another, its more of a popularity contest. If you go to Colorado, loads play Mullens, if you go to nashville, loads play Emmons, if you go to Texas, loads play Carters! Thats my hohnest opinion which is normally wrong Smile

Larry Bressington · From: Nebraska

John Kingsley · From: Los Angeles, CA

I think the truth is a lot of us hear with our eyes...but the main difference I hear between a p/p and others is the extra growly mojo kinda thing the push pull gives.

Don Drummer · From: West Virginia, USA

Like John K. Said, It's the growly mojo thing. Also a very pronounced separation of chord tones on the C6th neck that makes a Push Pull different and a quality that jazz steelers look for. IMO. Don D.

Bryant Aycock · From: Pikeville, North Carolina

I guess I need to come in here. I have played the Cherokee guitar for years. These are the pull/release guitars built by Clyde Mattocks. I bought mine around the time the technology was changing. It's a wooden guitar with wooden necks. I owned a P/P for a while and I was glad to get rid of it. I just recently bought a Sho-Bud Super Pro. I like the all pull system, but it still doesn't sound as good as the Cherokee. If the pull/release was easy to work on and to add changes, I would have saved my money. The best compliment I've been paid about the Sho-Bud is that it sounds almost as good as the Cherokee and the Cherokee stays in tune.
Thanks,
Bryant

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

As I understand it, pull-release has a one-piece finger, and push-pull has a two-piece finger. An example of pull-release is the Sho-Bud Maverick or the early Marlen/Speedy West guitars. Push-pull typically refers to the old Emmons design, but there are a few Promat and B guitars that are also push-pull.
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Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Right on, Bob. The 2-piece finger added a little mass (which might change the sound), but it allowed more versatility in setups and changes. Besides, the fact that no "top tier" steeler is presently using a steel with a single finger design is prima-facie evidence that (despite what some steelers might say) it has no sonic advantages.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Whether it's a tonal advantage or not is debatable, Donny. I really liked the sound of the Speedy West Marlen that I owned for a couple of years. It was as good as any pedal steel I've owned. I could certainly live with that tone on my main axe, but I couldn't live with the mechanical limitations. I suspect that some of your "top tier" steelers would feel the same way. Speedy himself was happy with it.

That's one guitar that I really do regret selling. Sad

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Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

Steve Waltz · From: USA

I believe that the shot Jackson model Jackson has single piece fingers.

"The end result is the Ultimate Sound and precise tuning. The one-piece design string pullers allow for twice the tuning ratio as the original Super Pro." From the Jackson site.

That is why they have the lowers at the keyhead, to allow for the use of a single piece finger. The single finger has a hard time doing it all on it's own. Wasn't the whole point a nod to the importance of single finger design and it's effect?

Single finger changers can do more than people give them credit for. For the usual F lever you need to thread the end of the rod on one of the pulls. Put a curled nut on there and tune the second string of the pull from under the guitar. It's no big deal and it's doing exactly the same thing as a rack and barrel system except that you have to reach under. With this method and a cobination of tunings at knee and pedal travel points you can do a bunch.

Also the maverick is a bad example since it isn't a great guitar. Sho bud peranents were single finger and I have a feeling Bigsbys with pedals were too. Right now you can get a reporduction of bigsby and it sounds like the perm is up next from the Jacksons.

Ron ! · Posted 9 Oct 2008 9:36 am

Don Brown, Sr. · From: New Jersey

Simply, for the record. Does anyone have (or could someone draw up) a schetch of what they are calling a "Pull Release" changer system?

I say this because the pedal steel I've played for the past 40 years, is indeed a "Solid Finger" that's (by design) capable of just about everything that's being done today. And this was built years ago, with 8 + 4, and yes, I can get splits as well.

The most important part I've loved is the absolute staying in tune. I've seen others playing, with picks on their fingers, along with the tuning wrench kept between the necks, and fine tuning after nearly every song or two. And yes! That was in Nashville, with the Top pedal steels of that time era.

Anyway, I'm really trying to come up with what to call my system, because it's definitely not a Pull Release. But it most definitely is a Push/Pull. And the fingers positively have to return in tune, unless something was to break.

The reason why I'd like to actually see what folks are calling a "Pull Release" system..

Could somebody draw something up and post it so we could all take a look at exactly what one looks like?

Thanks,
Don Cool

Steve Waltz · From: USA

i can't draw but I'll do a few photos:

You can see the single piece fingers with three holes in each one. The rod passes through and is held behind the finger with a colar. The other end goes through a bell crank and has a colar or a tuning nut behind that. You can also see on the LKL the sping that holds my 2nd and 9th stings in Neutral. The two allen wrench type screws are what you use to adjust how far it lowers and where it gets held in place. In this case the lower is tuned on the changer but you could use these too.

Lowers are tuned by these screws. They limit the amount of backward travel of the finger.

Someone elses guitar. You can see the underside tuning and a few of the springs that hold some fingers into middle position so that they can then be raised or lowered. The rods pass through the bell cranks here.

Rods here stop at the bell cranks so it's not possible to add the extra tuning help, this is a sho bud. Later they changed to something more similar to the blonde guitar above.

Tuning for a second raise is done by adjusting the knee lever travel.

Marlens have a bell crank that looks like Emmons parts and that makes it look like it's push pull. Marlen used that so that each location could be a raise or a lower but it doesn't actually push it. Without that you have to flip bell crnaks upside down or what ever inorder to make it do what you want.

You may notice that this sho bud doesn't have pedal stops. The stop is when the finger hits the body. That changed later too.
Some pull release guitars do have tuning at the endplate but I don't have one so I don't know how that works. I'm not an expert on this stuff I'm just giving you what I can.

Bryant Aycock · From: Pikeville, North Carolina

Since Ron's original question was "What is your opinion", here goes. It doesn't take a degree in mechanical engineering to see that the "all pull" is just a pull release taken to the next step. It pulls to raise and pulls an aditional lever to release. It is more accurate and much easier to work on. The tensions are more the same. It's a better system. I am unaware of the "tier system" in steel guitar playing. I don't know what "tier" it puts me on, I enjoy my "pull/release" guitar. It's my belief that most players settle into a pedal setup and tho the "all pull" is easy to make changes, they don't change a lot.
I challenge any "top tier" player to tell the difference in the sound based on the mechanics. I think anyone who has the cahonies to choose steel guitar above all other instruments available, is "top tier" however well he/her plays. I have no appreciation for the "top tier" comment.
Thank You,
Bryant

Don Brown, Sr. · From: New Jersey

Steve, Thanks a lot for your time in putting up those shots, and for the explanation as well.

My steel has no pedal stops, nor no knee lever stops. The fingers are at "Center Position" at rest, when strung up. And, from that position on, they can travel either forward or backward. There virtually is no limit as to how low or high you could potentially raise or lower any given string/s.

You tune up open at the keyhead. Then tune your lowers or raises (doesn't matter which you tune first) from the changer end allen head screws, (which also serve as your pedal and knee lever stops). Upper are for the lowers and bottoms are for the raises. The stops are when the finger makes contact with the lower stop screws. The raise stops are when the finger makes contact with the raise collars.

I love the fact that there is nothing that can bind the fingers, that could possibly prevent them from returning true, (other than if they froze up on the finger axle shaft) as there's no other pivot points.

It seems to me that for any steel to continually return true, day in and day out, the less pivit points it has, the better off it would be. When you think about it, a rivit here to pivot on, or in some cases two rivits in the finger, one top and one bottom, that creates too many pivot points working in close tolerance, and depending on all of those what? three pieces working together, and each one having body contact with the other part, to go back to it's rest position, means more chance of problems for not returning true.

I know modern technology might be good, but none the less, friction still remains, as do pivot points meaning more things to rub against, just isn't in my personal opinion, a real good thing when they have to return true each and every time.

Thanks again Steve,
Don Cool

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