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Topic: Spring tension + Cabinet drop |
Gavin Dunn
From:
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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Posted 6 Oct 2008 8:40 am |
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Reducing spring tension at the changer on AB pedals to reduce cabinet drop?
Anyone? |
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Bill Dobkins
From:
Rolla Missouri, USA
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Posted 6 Oct 2008 9:23 am
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Gavin, The springs at the changer are for the return of your lowers, IE levers and have nothing to do with A&B pedals. I don't think these springs would have anything to do with cabinet drop.
_________________
Custom Rittenberry SD10
Boss Katana 100 Amp
Positive Grid Spark amp
BJS Bars
Z~Legend Pro,Custom Tele
Honor our Vet's.
Now pass the gravy. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 6 Oct 2008 9:53 am
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| Quote: |
| The springs at the changer are for the return of your lowers, IE levers and have nothing to do with A&B pedals. |
Well they are still loading the changer axle, but the amount is rather insignificant. You could also reduce string guages to help, but that's insignificant too.
Bottom line is that if you have a guitar that has excessive drop, give it to a pro to fix or trade it in on a better one. (Of course, that assumes you're not adding to the problem by pressing the pedals too hard.)
Anything up to 4 or 5 cents drop probably ain't worth worrying about. |
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 6 Oct 2008 10:01 am
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I agree with don!
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Bill Dobkins
From:
Rolla Missouri, USA
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Posted 6 Oct 2008 12:18 pm
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Thanks Donnie for a better clarifacation.
Are all changer's basically the same ?
_________________
Custom Rittenberry SD10
Boss Katana 100 Amp
Positive Grid Spark amp
BJS Bars
Z~Legend Pro,Custom Tele
Honor our Vet's.
Now pass the gravy. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 8 Oct 2008 1:32 pm
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| There's some minor differences in the physical designs, but most all-pull changers are very similar in the way they operate. |
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 9 Oct 2008 3:59 am
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Gavin,
The spring tension at the changer is not going to reduce cabinet drop, a good steel does not have enough cabinet drop to be a problem, those return springs cannot warp a maple body; If you are having tuning problems and you have a well made steel, the problems are somewhere else.
The return spring relationship to a solid maple body is the same as, A rowing boat tugging on the Titanic |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 9 Oct 2008 6:52 am
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| Quote: |
| The spring tension at the changer is not going to reduce cabinet drop |
I agree totally.
I will comment that "cabinet-drop" (for more than just a few) is a problem on MANY guitars; EVEN when they are built according to specs.
For example: an Emmons' LeGrande II will exhibit normally, a drop of upwards of 8-10 cents on string 6 when the A pedal is engaged. This IS normal for this guitar.
My Excel Superb S-12 (without the "anti-cabinet drop" adjusted) will do similarly. It is normal for this guitar. So do Zum's. So do a number of others. Fender 400's, 800's, 1,000's and 2,000's did not exhibit cabinet drop, because of their humongously heavy reinforced aluminum frame.
In my exhaustive investigations over the last 40 yrs on a myriad of PSG's, it is normal for MOST guitars to drop the 6th string when the A pedal is engaged. This is also true of the 4th string with A and/or B pressed. But it is not as severe a drop. Some guitars have more, some less. A miniscule few do not drop. But they are rare.
Some players cannot hear the drop; while others can and are not bothered by this at all. Others are bothered more or less. But for some they are bothered so badly (includes a number of the "greats" as well), they will do just about anything to get it corrected. Thus the advent, the need and the creation and building of "counter-force" mechanisms to eliminate the problem.
The cause of "cabinet-drop" is many faceted. As Ron Lashley Sr said, "There is more than one thing that causes it, but the LeGrande III solves it!"
It is NO sin for those players who are bothered by it to pay extra to get rid of it. No differently than those who pay for "compensators" to adjust the pitch of given strings to over come "hysterisis" and/or get around JI induced tuning problems. Or those that adjust a tuning key to shift from straight up to get rid of "beats", because they can not stand them.
Adjusting a key to tune to JI pitch, is NO different than adjuting a cabinet drop "adjuster" to bring a sting BACK up to pitch when it is detuned by pulling other strings.
Those with really critical ears, CAN hear relative pitch changes of less than 2 cents. I am one of them. So is Buddy Emmons. And a number of others.
This is why Buddy bought two Emmons LeGrande III's when he could have saved a lot of money by buying two LeGrande II's, since that is the ONLY difference between them; and today he has two ZumSteels with the "counter-force" option. He can hear the drop and he does not like it. So he seeks and finds a guitar that can cure it.
To each his own. And may Jesus bless all players regardless, always,
c.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 9 Oct 2008 8:21 am
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Fellows Let's not forget raise helper springs. I'm not sure if they are so common. My Fessey S12 has them anyway.
Indeed they reduce one contributing component (there are many) of cabinet drop to some degree in that you don't have to mash the pedals so hard.
Mine are adjustable. One bad thing about them is you can increase the raise help until the raise doesn't return which is bad of course, but, on a 12 string guitar with pedals that raise all three octaves - I'd hate to be without them.
Jim |
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 9 Oct 2008 8:39 am
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I see cabinet drop only when the guitar is open, ala' A/B pedals down, and no bar [ open A]
A steel is played by ear, eventhough there are fret marks as guides. A few cents of drop is corrected by moving the bar a 0001,th of an inch.
There is no presice fretting as such, its a judgment call, in my opinion.
I never could catch onto the 'body drop' sale. My 'shobud body drop' on the tuner A/B or B/C pedals down, is so minute that its not worth worring about. When you bar the 12th fret, its only the 12th fret when your ear tells you it is.
I actually tune my open E's and B's and F#'s to 441hz, [actually 440 is an A note, but you get my drift] because i temper tune, that means my C#'s wont sound too flat,and the others wont sound too sharp, because you ear will not bend with slight increase and slight decrease, you want smooth sounding chords, just like a guitar and a piano, there is no such thing as 'PERFECT INTONATION
If you get one chord perfect, then the next one will be out, so you comprimise them all slightly, so that not one of them stands out of tune.  |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 9 Oct 2008 2:26 pm
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| Larry Bressington wrote: |
| I see cabinet drop only when the guitar is open, ala' A/B pedals down, and no bar [ open A] |
You know, that's true come to think of it.
_________________
Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons |
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Bryant Aycock
From:
Pikeville, North Carolina
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Posted 9 Oct 2008 4:35 pm eliminate cabinet drop
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You guys with cabinet drop may want to try this. With whatever method you choose, tune your guitar. Then, if you use an electronic tuner, go lock it up in your pickup. Come back in and play the rest of the night. I think you'll find your "cabinet drop" has gone away. It's worth a try.
Bryant |
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John Bechtel
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.
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Posted 10 Oct 2008 8:13 pm
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Any string that both Raises and Lowers should not have a helper-spring on the Raise portion! In fact, on most guitars; helper-springs have been totally eliminated and really are not necessary! And the ‘Lower’ Return-Spring on all strings should have only enough tension to eliminate the Lowering-Mechanism from ‘lifting off’ when the Raise-Function is operated very slowly! In other words, [upside-down] When you, very slowly; activate the (A)-Pedal, there should be just enough tension on the Lower-return springs of #5 & #10 so that you see no movement of the Lowering portion of the changer on those strings. If you see any movement on the Lowering portion, give the tension-spring screw just half a turn at a time, until all Lowering~movement stops. On the other hand, too much tension makes Lowering more difficult! If you don't have adjustable spring-tension, you'll have to live with what you have!
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