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Topic: Restoring Vintage Amps |
Bill Terry
From:
Bastrop, TX
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Posted 22 Sep 2008 1:58 pm |
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I thought I'd start a new thread of the discussion that sorta took over Ken's post about his '53 Deluxe. This topic has been hashed many times over on some of the Fender forums, but it's been a while since we've had it here. 
You either dig 'Vintage Mojo' or you don't.. and if you DO, you'll likely have to pay for it. Clearly there ARE people who value that aged vibe. Look at all the companies in business now doing 'relic' services. So originality (and even the perception of originality) has some value to many buyers.
IMO there are very generally 3 sorts of 'vintage' Fender amps. Listed in order of 'likely market value', highest to lowest.
- The true untouched, "found in a closet" versions. Complete with original everything, mint or very near mint. The potential buyer for this kind of amp wouldn't even think of changing anything, and probably won't play through it. There aren't many, Bring $$$..
- Mostly original, with the exception of cap jobs, other 'necessary' electrical repairs to make the amp functional as a 'player'.. not a museum piece as in the first category, but very collectible. Generally the vinyl, grill, transformers, knobs etc. are correct. Sometimes they have minor, reversible circuit modifications. These amps have some amount of wear from usage, varying from light to heavy. Amps in this category are more available, but can still bring top dollar, especially those with less wear and more originality. Even the most ragged versions will still bring good prices IF mostly original, ESPECIALLY cosmetics.
- The completely restored amp, which includes replacing tolex, grill and any and all electrical repairs.
Granted there is a lot of gray area between categories 2 and 3, amps with unreversible mods, replacement transformers (original transformers being considered an essential part of the sound by many players). However, the price erosion pretty much tracks with the amount of non-originality.
I think Ken's Deluxe probably started out in the second category and is now firmly in the third. Is that a bad thing? Well, he's just got a different 'buyer pool' now than he did before. It's unfortunate if you happen to like old amps that wear their 'scars' like I do, but maybe just the ticket for a guy who wants a '53 Deluxe but can't afford (or simply doesn't think it's worth the extra money) to buy a reliable working amp from category two. Many folks attach value to originality and the 'story' an old amp tells with it's appearance, some don't.
Bottom line, Ken wanted to do a full restoration on that Deluxe because he clearly enjoys this stuff and does exemplary work. Could he have sold it for more with original tweed, even in fairly bad condition? I'd think so, but somebody will get a great little amp and be happy. That said, let us guys that really dig those old 'road dog' amps mourn a bit...
_________________
Lost Pines Studio
"I'm nuts about bolts" |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 22 Sep 2008 2:28 pm
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| Just a little side note: When I got my 52 Pro Amp, it needed a cap job. My tech, being the total nerd that he is, put the new caps inside of the old cap bodies. Looks original, but sounds like new! |
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Ken Fox
From:
Nashville GA USA
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Posted 22 Sep 2008 3:03 pm
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People did not see what I saw. The bottom of the amp was eaten up by some sort of wood beetle or worm. There was a lot of wood missing there. Why in the world would anyone leave the bottom exposed to further damage? The wood was still strong but would be exposed to the elements. I had to at least repair and recover the bottom. The tweed on the sides was rotted at the bottom as well and came away as I removed the bottom piece. There was no saving it either.
There was really nothing left to work with, in my opinion.
Value, I could care less if the amp is worth less. I will not sell any amp in that kind on condition.
I recently sold a 1961 Tweed Harvard. Very rough but no wood damage, I did not re-cover it.
It sold for $2350.00 on eBay in less than a day. |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 22 Sep 2008 4:05 pm
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Several of my "babies". The '55 Vibrolux and the '59 Princeton are completely original. There is a slight ding on the top left front of the Vibrolux, compliments of the '94 Northridge earthquake.
This is a '56 Pro with the original Fender issue D-130.
Last edited by chas smith R.I.P. on 28 Sep 2008 11:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 22 Sep 2008 4:08 pm
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| I'd like to plug my Tele into that Pro! |
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Bill A. Moore
From:
Silver City, New Mexico, USA
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Posted 22 Sep 2008 4:43 pm Amps are no different than cars.
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| I have never had the opportunity to decide to cover, or not, a vintage amplifier, but several times a year, I work on my customers vintage cars. Right now, there is a 49 F1 that we are rebuilding the engine. The machine shop just called, it has new fitted pistons, reground crank, and milled head. When we reassemble this engine, we have done nothing but improve the value of the vehicle, which came in with 2 dead cylinders. Of course the thing has been painted, it lived in New Mexico, but without restoration, no one would see this old truck driving up and down the road. I think working machinery, weather electrical, or mechanical, should be used, not stored away in an old barn. That's my opinion, Bill. |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 22 Sep 2008 5:45 pm
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John, the last time the Buena Vista Social Club played in LA, Ry couldn't get anyone to sell him a Pro, myself included, so he borrowed it. Doesn't matter what it's worth, if no one will sell one, and it sounds as good as you think it does although my '59 Standell might sound better.
| Quote: |
| I think working machinery, weather electrical, or mechanical, should be used, not stored away in an old barn. |
It requires maintenance whether you use it or not, so you might as well use it. |
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 22 Sep 2008 10:11 pm
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Chas those amps look great and even that level of wear
is more than acceptable as leave it be, please!
Ken's amp looked a horror and was far from stock in comparison.
I might have though to only do the bottom side.
My '60 Champ looked perfect, but sounded like crap
a wall shelf ornament and not much more.
It now sounds awesome and that makes it good
for what it was built for. Making music.
If it looks beat to hell but HAS THE STORY,
like it was Eric's amp with the Bluebreakers
Sonny House played it from 58-63 etc, then THAT
certainly means don't touch it unless it stops running.
The story trumps any rattyness.
Historical value, left as last used, is cool
and valuable historically.
But no story and looks like shite, and sounds the same;
Fix the thing up, make it do it's designed job.
Maybe then it will build a story if it's own.
_________________
DLD, Chili farmer. Plus bananas and papaya too.
Real happiness has no strings attached.
But pedal steels have many! |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2008 4:17 am
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| Chas, as a huge RC fan, I'm impressed! I was very jealous of my old bandmate, Amy Madigan, when she worked with, and recorded with Ry, for "Streets of Fire." |
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James Quackenbush
From:
Pomona, New York, USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2008 6:10 am
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| Over the years I have collected some very valuable pieces of gear , and some not so valuable ....I know that that to bring the big $$ you should leave things the way they are ....With that in mind , I had a 55 Les Paul jr that was in great shape except for the tuners ...They were rotted and were almost spinning on the tuner shafts ....I was told to leave them be and put new tuners on , but keep the originals ....I was also told that this particular guitar was a bit rare and not to take it out to gig ....Now I don't know about you , but to me you own instruments that you can play, not just look at .... If I want to look at something and not play it , and have it go up in value, I'll buy expensive paintings !!.....This being said, I buy a lot of clone amps that have the tone of the originals, but not the price, and if something happens to them , I can have them built all over again .... Do I love the Mojo of a tattered Fender Tweed ? ...Heck yeah !!....But I'm not gonna let it sit there in the corner like it was Mona Lisa or something .....BTW, I ended up selling that 55 Jr for a good chunk of change to a guy who had almost 100 Les Paul Jrs....This was only his 2nd 55 Jr. .....He was THRILLED to get it ......I was THRILLED for the money he paid for it >>>I love when a plan comes together .....Jim |
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Rick Johnson
From:
Wheelwright, Ky USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2008 6:35 am
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Whenever I'm asked to restore a tweed
era amp, I advise the customer to
just let me build a new cabinet and baffle
and keep the old just in case he ever decides
to sell it.
Most of the time they agree.
Rick
www.rickjohnsoncabs.com |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2008 11:09 am
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| Quote: |
| Chas, as a huge RC fan, I'm impressed! I was very jealous of my old bandmate, Amy Madigan, when she worked with, and recorded with Ry, for "Streets of Fire." |
John, small world. I was one of the welders on the back lot of Universal Studios that made the tarp stage over the New York set, to shoot "night", during the day time, for "Streets of Fire". 4 months of 12hr days 7days a week, 85' up. Saved up enough to make a down payment on my house, 1983.
When Ry got his PA reissue, he came over for a lesson, and I kept saying, haven't we got this reversed? |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2008 11:55 am
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| Chas!!! GREAT story! Didja get to meet Amy? She was Methyl Ethyl in my Milwaukee band "Methyl Ethyl And The Ketones." Personality for miles!!! |
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Eric Philippsen
From:
Central Florida USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2008 12:29 pm
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The debate over keep-it-original vs don't will always be around. However, from a strict $marketplace$ perspective, originality, condition and desirability are the rules. For those factors, there are varing degrees of leeway regarding whether the amp or guitar is useable if left as is. For example, a 53' Tele with its original strings is certainly original but not too useable. However, refinishing that Tele, because it has some "unsightly" finish checking, would, perhaps, not be a wise idea. If one did, the value of the guitar would instantly go down by roughly 50%.
Do what you want to your guitar or amp. You're the owner. But do so with the realization that any change might very well affect the $$ you get if and when you (or your kids) try and sell it later. When you enter that sphere it's not about why the change was made. It's not about whether it looks better. Rather, it's about what was done to the piece and what it would take to get it back to its original condition (excepting refins).
And that's why those who deal in original parts often do very well. A very well-known vintage guitar dealer once said that he doesn't sell any of his spare original parts. That's because one of those parts, when installed on a guitar that's lacking it, might raise the value of the instrument by $500 or more.
I have found that when I choose to make changes to vintage amps or guitars I keep the old parts with the amp or guitar (i.e. tuners) and try and do little or nothing that isn't reversible.
Sorry about the directness of all this. I've probably been too blunt. These are just some lessons I have learned over the years of buying and selling guitars and amps. |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 23 Sep 2008 1:09 pm
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| Quote: |
| I'd like to plug my Tele into that Pro! |
John, you need to watch it. This is a family forum.
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2008 1:27 pm
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| Lee! My goodness! What's wrong with your mind! Bwaaa. Good one! |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 23 Sep 2008 6:50 pm
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2008 8:39 pm
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| Quote: |
| Didja get to meet Amy? |
No, the "talent" doesn't normally socialize with the welders. There's that blue collar fantasy where the babes, deep down inside, really want to meet a welder, prop-maker,______fill in the blank. I promise you, it's a fantasy.
That '59 Standell I was talking about.
How about a mid/late '30s Gibson 185:
Last edited by chas smith R.I.P. on 28 Sep 2008 11:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Jussi Huhtakangas
From:
Helsinki, Finland
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Posted 24 Sep 2008 3:36 am
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Now Chas, what was your address again and what were the hours you're taking the dogs out??  |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 24 Sep 2008 8:39 pm
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Jussi, funny you should mention dogs. Laura wants to get one, but I'll agree to her getting a dog if I can get a stripper. That has led a lot of routines like dog jumps in her lap, stripper jumps in mine, dog is on a leash, stripper is...well you get the idea....
This is the amp you want to hear, no tone control, because it doesn't need one:
Last edited by chas smith R.I.P. on 28 Sep 2008 11:09 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 26 Sep 2008 5:15 am
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I definitely follow the "keep it original" path as much as possible - but when Ken posted that the wood had been eaten away on the bottom I had absolutely no doubt his had to be restored and recovered.
I have a 100% original '58 Princeton I take not-recommended chances with and play periodically, because it's better (and safer) than NOT playing it at all - caps need to be fired up now and then. And I'm at a crossroads - either sell it as a collector's item (and buy myself another one that's a player and have more "play money) or keep it like it is - but eventually it'll blow, so I need to decide.
My '55 Deluxe is another case - when I got it full service had been done. It sounds tremendous and looks wonderful with just slightly worn tweed. It blew the PT (in the middle of a gig! Shoulda seen the smoke on the stage...). I could have cried and spent 2 years looking for an original, but it was smarter from a "player amp standpoint to just get the correct Mercury Magnetics PT, use my original bells for looks, and be done with it. It still looks and SOUNDS like a '55 Deluxe!
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 26 Sep 2008 8:23 am
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You can pop in the MM OT and the play while you look for an original.
MM also will rewind your original as close to spec as they can.
_________________
DLD, Chili farmer. Plus bananas and papaya too.
Real happiness has no strings attached.
But pedal steels have many! |
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Lefty
From:
Grayson, Ga.
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Posted 26 Sep 2008 3:24 pm
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Sometimes it is a no brainer, but sometimes a hard call. My 57 Tweed Pro was covered in a Rancho deluxe naugahide (?) when I found it. I carried my Les Paul Deluxe and plugged in, and the whole pawn shop vibrated, and I got nasty looks from the owner.
I bought it for $90.00, and was happy. I recovered it as close to original as possible.
My Super reverbs (1970 and 1968) I bought as a pair.
They were nasty, and smelly. I was told an older musician owned them who played at a local Greek resturant in town. I chose to re-tolex and regrill the two.
For the Fenders of that period who have a composite baffle board, a new birch plywood baffle is an enhancement. I adeed one to my 1970 Fender twin as well. I also added blackface front panels. Some out there would disagree with this I am sure.
Also the 63 Showman was a judgement call for me, but I chose to recover it as well.
Lefty |
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Lefty
From:
Grayson, Ga.
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Posted 26 Sep 2008 3:30 pm
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Before and after:
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Lefty
From:
Grayson, Ga.
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Posted 26 Sep 2008 4:00 pm
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Before and after:
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