Push-Pull changer lubricant/grease

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

I have the changer out of my push-pull. I plan to clean 30 plus years of dirt and dust out of it and re-grease it. What kind of grease should I be using?

Lynn Stafford · From: Ridgefield, WA USA

Hi Paul,

Well, I happen to use Valvolene Heavy Duty Moly Grease when I rebuild changers. I bought it at an auto supply store several years ago. I completely disassemble the changer and dip the fingers and axle in carburetor cleaner. Afterward, I inspect everything real well and measure the axle holes in the fingers with a dial caliper to make sure none of them are overly warn. You may need to actually replace the axle, as they can sometimes become very galled over time. The axle is 9/16 (.5625) diameter steel and you have to make sure the length for a new one matches the old one exactly. It's important because of the combined "stack" of the fingers and spacer shims fitting between the two pillow blocks.

Good luck with your project!
_________________
Best regards,
Lynn Stafford

STEEL GUITAR WEST
http://www.steelguitarwest.com
Steel Guitar Technician (Restoration, Set-up, Service and Repair work)

Previous Emmons Authorized Dealer & Service Technician (original factory is now closed)

ZumSteel Authorized Service Technician
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Martin Weenick · From: Lecanto, FL, USA

Paul, you can buy precision ground 9/16 stainless steel shaft at McMaster -Carr in 12 inch lengths. For some reason 9/16 shaft is very hard to find. Martin.
_________________
Several custom steels. NV-112 Boss DD-7

Dick Sexton · From: Greenville, Ohio

Here is what Mr. Carl Dixion said he uses. I'm am going to try this when I tear mine down. http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=142214

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

Thanks for the information. I hadn't planned to take the changer apart. I was just going to dip it in some sort of solvent. I suspect I should take it apart per your suggestions. When I get a chance I'll take a second look and try to see how the thing comes apart. If I have problems I'll post again. Thanks again. Paul

Chris Lucker · From: Los Angeles, California USA

I see that stainless rod has been recommended in a post above.

Drill rod is what Emmons used. Stick to drill rod.

Lynn Stafford · From: Ridgefield, WA USA

Damir Besic · From: Nashville,TN.

I use gun oil...

Db

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

What is drill rod and where does one get it? Why is it better than stainless steel? This seems to be getting more complicated than I anticipated. Paul

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

Drill rod should be available at a well stocked metal supply store. Industrial Metal Supply, 8300 San Fernando Rd, Sun Valley, CA 91352, 818-729-3333 has it. To add to what was mentioned above, until you get into the more exotic alloys of stainless, it's not a very "musical" metal. The "off-the-shelf" stainless alloys that I usually find are 303 and 304, 303 being the more machinable and 304 being more weldable.

Chris Lucker · From: Los Angeles, California USA

I see you list California as your residence. If you happen to be in Los Angeles, or the South Bay, M&K metals near the intersection of Rosecrans and Western is where I get drill rod for machining replacement axles. I have a five or six feet of it around here somewhere.
I have never tried stainless for axles. I stick to what Emmons used on its 9/16s axle guitars.

Bobby Bowman · From: Cypress, Texas, USA, R.I.P.

Paul,
Before you take your changer apart try this and see if it makes the changer friction free and smooth moving.
Probably two spray cans of carburator cleaner or even brake cleaner and just keep flooding the changer with it until the solvent comes out clean. If you have a high pressure air hose, it would be good to blow it out each time you flood it. After that is done to your likeing,,,get a spray can of Rem oil with Teflon by Remington fire arms company in the gun department at Wal Mart. Soak it with that and vigorously move and shake all the fingers and blow that out. Then respray it with the Rem oil, move and shake all the fingers again and let it stand for a few hours or over night. Most of the time, this will fix it.
Caution: make sure you do all of this in a well vented place or outside and protect anything that all of this will drip on if necessary.
If you do have to take the changer apart and the axle is grooved,,,check to see if the grooves are on one side of the axle (probably the top half) and if so, just turn the axle 180 degrees and it should be good for another 10 to 30 years.
If you need or want to call me, feel free to do so and I'll do all I can to help you out. 281-856-9453.
BB
_________________
If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!
http://www.bobbybowman.com

Danny Bates · From: Fresno, CA. USA

Great advice guys... what a great forum!

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Use lighter fluid (naphtha) as a solvent to flush out all the old oils and gunk.

Then use a Teflon-based (like Triflow or Pedro's Extra Dry) lubricant - not oil,and most certainly not grease! any oily material acts like a dirt/dust magnet, gumming up parts and requiring regular cleaning to avoid friction and excessive wear. I see more problems *caused* by oil and grease on steels and other instruments than *fixed* by using them. ALL oils also break down over time - so unless you like flushing everything out and re-oiling every 6 months or so, I'd stay with dry lube materials - but if for some reason you are absolutely stuck on using oil, use VERY small amounts.

Grease is for wheel bearings, not instruments.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

Chuck Snider R.I.P. · From: West Virginia, USA - Morgantown, WV

Has anyone ever tried using silicone to lube things? And the same question for graphite powder?

There is silicone spary lubricant, and I think I even saw some that included teflon and silicone. The graphite I don't think is available as a spray, but is in powder form and could be applied maybe during reassembly??

-Chuck
_________________
GFI U-12 Ultra Keyless, Carter Black U-12, both with Alumitones, and a sweet '70 Sho-Bud Permanent D-10, NV400 in Rick Johnson cabs, NV112, '73 Vibrosonic in Rick Johnson cabs, Hilton pedal, Steeler's Choice seat, Bessdang Gizmos from Dale Hansen, and a few other widgets and doodads.
I may not sound good, I just don't wanna sound bad.

Bobby Bowman · From: Cypress, Texas, USA, R.I.P.

I'd just as soon leave silicone alone most of the time for pedal steel. Graphite is fine, but is very messey. Clean and dry is actually best in most casses. But,,,,if you must oil and lube things on a pedal steel, learn to do it sparingly.
Hell, I'm talking myself and other mechanics out of a lot of business here. Sock all the oil and whatever other lubricants that catch your fancy to your guitar and then later on, don't gripe or be surprised when you "pay the fiddler" to straighten out your guitar. Try to remember that we're not dealing with a NASCAR racing machine that goes 200 mph and has 10,000 rpm,,,we're dealing with a very slow moving manuel machine that most parts don't even move an 1/8'th or 16'th of a full turn.
Clean, dry, very little and "proper" lubricant, smooth surfaces, correct aliegnment, good parts and correct leverage ratio's is usually what makes a pedal steel guitar work the best and last longer.
Of course, there are always an exception here and there and these exceptions need to be dealt with by someone who has the knowledge, experience and "know how" (which could be yourself).
As pedal steel players, there's nothing quiet as aggrevating and disappointing as a bad playing guitar. On the other hand, when everything is right, there's probably no better feeling and your "playing confidence" and experience just goes off the scale, so to speak.
BB
_________________
If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!
http://www.bobbybowman.com

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

Bobby,
Are you saying you don't lubricate the changer at all? Thanks to everyone for their input. Paul

Bobby Bowman · From: Cypress, Texas, USA, R.I.P.

"angular velocity",,,,I like that term. May I borrow it from time to time? LOL!

Paul, No sir, I'm not saying that. However, I had rather see it clean and dry than with a lot of lube, especially the wrong kind of lube. Stick with the Rem oil or simular product sparingly and you'll be fine.
If you wipe the part with your finger and you have more than a film on your finger, then it's probably too much.
BB

Paul, I should have said a light film on your finger.
_________________
If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!
http://www.bobbybowman.com

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Chuck, my post about grease and oil (and by default, dry lube) is based on 35 years in the coatings and chemical industry.

Silicones are another "dust magnet" - any oil infused with silicone will attract dst faster than the alone (this is also true of siliconized coatings...and silicone caulk, while semi-waterproof, is mildew food because it holds microscopic dirt.).

The ONLY place I use silicones is 1) window glazing (caulking), and 2) potentiometer treatment, AFTER flushing them out with a pure cleaner (you HAVE to have a lubricant...oil or silicone...in a pot or it will be destroyed - never use "contact cleaner).

Graphite is a great lube - the biggest problem is, it's messy. That's why I tend to stick with Teflon, although I still use the guitar tech's main tool - a #2 pencil scraped around in nut slots to keep the strings lubed at the nut.

But grease, 3-in-1, gun oil, 40 weight, Magic Unobtanium Oil from Madagascar, etc should not go NEAR a guitar. All they do is get parts dirtier faster...and dirt causes wear.

And although no one mentioned it, it deserves another mention - WD40 should be kept in the garage and used on your rusty garage door springs. Not guitars, not cars, not door hinges..keep that junk away from ANYTHING you value. I've seen more mechanical and electrical parts wrecked with that "lubricant" more than all others combined.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

When I'm sanding aluminum, I spray WD-40 on the sanding discs, as a lube.

Don Brown, Sr. · From: New Jersey

Folks, there is NO mystery to lubing a Pedal Steel Guitar. Absolutely none!

I've played the same (have only owned one) pedal steel for 40 + years, and never once had a problem, with strings not returning (absolutely) true, etc.

Note: The only thing I ever used up until the first 20 years of pretty much, non stop playing, was to drop one tiny drop of 3 & 1 (I actually used Singer Sewing Machine oil) down between the fingers about once a year or so.

The same for anywhere else, that (I felt) may need lubrication..

After the first 20 years or so, I decided to remove the Axle shafts, to clean and relube them as well as the spacers. I had no idea what George (the builder) had used on it, and had lost contact with him through the years. So, I decided to mix up a special batch of lubricant. That being, Vasoline Petroleum Jelly, mixed with 3 & 1 oil, for a thin light consistancy. Only to be used on the Axel shaft. It worked fine for the last 20 years.

On this last complete rebuild, I've finally been in contact with George again. He laughed when I asked him what he originally used on his Pedal Steel Guitars for lubrication. His replay was, any light lubricant, used sparingly as long as it's light weight. They need NOTHING more than that.

So, this time around, I went with simply (Singer Sewing Machine) oil (3 & 1) even for the finger shafts. But just as BB stated. You don't want it dripping nor running off. Simply a very thin, light coating.

Jim S, if you study DUST, there is NOTHING that dust don't/won't cling to. But if you ever find something that it doesn't, I could sure use it around my place. And! That includes, Teflon, Nylon, and anything else there is. Sorry, but that's just how dust is.. Also, Lighter Fluid, wouldn't even touch the nicotine nor remove the grease (Ronson Fluid) But again as BB Stated, Carb Cleaner, will remove it all..

Oh BB, Carb Cleaner comes in Spray Cans now too. Instead of having to buy it by the gallon.. "Berkebile 2+2 Instant Gum Cutter" Works great. However, I'd not spray the parts while still on the Steel.. I'd also make sure to rinse them off well with an outside water hose. And be careful, the stuff is indeed poisonous, and cannot be made to be nonpoisonous, according to warning label.

Now Paul S. go ahead and do your cleaning and relubing, knowing there is NO mystery to lubing a Pedal Steel Guitar. I'm saying this because after reading dozens and dozens of different ingredients to use/not to use, this, that and the other thing.

I know it's frustrating to have someone say, use this it works great, when it hasn't been out on the market long enough to tell for certain how well it holds up.. Well, good old Singer has kept those machine running full speed and top notch for many, many years, and they're all going strong. Good enough for them, then it's sure good enough for Pedal Steels as well..

PS: For the record, George did say, that he felt that a lubricant with Teflon, would probably work well too.

Now have fun lubing... Mysteries are now removed. Also, a light weight motor oil, works well on the cross shaft bearings too, for the initial assembly.

Don Cool

Chris Lucker · From: Los Angeles, California USA

If you remove the changer, or any other dirty parts, and want them spotless, boil them in Simple Green and water, or Tide and water, Spray and Wash and water. Saves a lot of labor.

Gino Iorfida · From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA

I agree with the Drill rod... specifically O1 Oil Hard drill rod, which from my memory is the hardness of the emmons axles. If you change materials, go harder OR softer, it WILL change your tone, not to mention may cause extra wear on the fingers. If you are concerned, contact Emmons, who will gladly sell you a replacement axle for not that much.
Stainless would be a BAD choice in that it IS softer than the drill rod, and well gummy.
A good source would be MSC supply www.mscdirect.com.

As for lubrication, Emmons recommended that I use White Lithium Grease (autoparts store).

Billy Carr · From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)

Anybody use Dextron III transmission fluid on any parts or Mystery Marvel oil ? I've used 3 in 1 before but don't care for the smell. The last two changers I cleaned were done with lighter fluid and then sprayed with the Remington gun oil. No problems.

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